What I Was Trying to Say Vis-a-Vis Timbre/Tuning?...

...I guess what I was primarily trying to say
is that I don't think genuinely 12TET music has been
written or performed yet, so I also have doubts about
the other alternative tuning systems.

To me, the electronic synthesizer manufacturers
are leading the way to the future of music, and are
putting to shame the other alleged "guardians" of
the potentiality/future of music.

Bill Flavell

And who might those alleged guardians be if I may be so bold to inquire,
Bill?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Flavell" <bill_flavell@email.com>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 04 Aral�k 2005 Pazar 19:51
Subject: [tuning] What I Was Trying to Say Vis-a-Vis Timbre/Tuning?...

>
> ...I guess what I was primarily trying to say
> is that I don't think genuinely 12TET music has been
> written or performed yet, so I also have doubts about
> the other alternative tuning systems.
>
> To me, the electronic synthesizer manufacturers
> are leading the way to the future of music, and are
> putting to shame the other alleged "guardians" of
> the potentiality/future of music.
>
>
> Bill Flavell
>
>
>
>
>
>
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--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Flavell" <bill_flavell@e...> wrote:
>
>
> ...I guess what I was primarily trying to say
> is that I don't think genuinely 12TET music has been
> written or performed yet, so I also have doubts about
> the other alternative tuning systems.

Hosw do you define "genuinely 12tet"? If I take a Schoenberg serial
piece and render it electronically, why isn't that genuinely 12tet?

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, <oyarman@o...> wrote:
>
> And who might those alleged guardians be if I may be so bold to
inquire,
> Bill?

Well, the academic music education establishment as far as I'm
concerned.

Music education is way too performance centric and then past-oriented
even in that narrow approach.

I don't have a conventional music education (having only studied
trumpet for 1 year at the age of 7). I'm completely self-taught beyond
that, though I am certainly thankful for the University of AZ Music
Library, where I did most of my music theory research in the late
1980s.

Bill Flavell

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:
>
> Hosw do you define "genuinely 12tet"? If I take a Schoenberg serial
> piece and render it electronically, why isn't that genuinely 12tet?

My apologies for mis-speaking in terms of 12TET music having been
WRITTEN. That isn't where the problem lies, IMO.

I just don't think that any 12TET music has ever been performed
accurately, since acoustic instruments aren't capable of playing it
accurately as an individual instrument, LET ALONE IN AN
ENSEMBLE/ORCHESTRA.

Bill Flavell

PS: Yes, a Schoenberg piece realized via electronic synthesizer/MIDI
would qualify as genuinely 12TET to me.

I also don't think that serial music in general was ever performed
accurately, either?

THE academic music education establishment as in?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Flavell" <bill_flavell@email.com>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 04 Aral�k 2005 Pazar 22:36
Subject: [tuning] Re: What I Was Trying to Say Vis-a-Vis Timbre/Tuning?...

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, <oyarman@o...> wrote:
> >
> > And who might those alleged guardians be if I may be so bold to
> inquire,
> > Bill?
>
> Well, the academic music education establishment as far as I'm
> concerned.
>
> Music education is way too performance centric and then past-oriented
> even in that narrow approach.
>
> I don't have a conventional music education (having only studied
> trumpet for 1 year at the age of 7). I'm completely self-taught beyond
> that, though I am certainly thankful for the University of AZ Music
> Library, where I did most of my music theory research in the late
> 1980s.
>
>
> Bill Flavell
>
>
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Flavell" <bill_flavell@email.com>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 04 Aral�k 2005 Pazar 22:42
Subject: [tuning] Re: What I Was Trying to Say Vis-a-Vis Timbre/Tuning?...

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:
> >
> > Hosw do you define "genuinely 12tet"? If I take a Schoenberg serial
> > piece and render it electronically, why isn't that genuinely 12tet?
>
>
> My apologies for mis-speaking in terms of 12TET music having been
> WRITTEN. That isn't where the problem lies, IMO.
>
> I just don't think that any 12TET music has ever been performed
> accurately, since acoustic instruments aren't capable of playing it
> accurately as an individual instrument, LET ALONE IN AN
> ENSEMBLE/ORCHESTRA.
>

Point taken.

>
> Bill Flavell
>
>
> PS: Yes, a Schoenberg piece realized via electronic synthesizer/MIDI
> would qualify as genuinely 12TET to me.
>
> I also don't think that serial music in general was ever performed
> accurately, either?
>
>
>

Maybe it wasn't meant to be accurate at all?

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, <oyarman@o...> wrote:
>
> THE academic music education establishment as in?

Good question, oyarman! :)

Too much of an over-generalization, I'm sure.

I guess university-level music education, but I'm
only an outsider looking in.

Just the rantings of a frustrated outsider with
nothing better to do! :)

Bill Flavell

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, <oyarman@o...> wrote:
> >
> > I also don't think that serial music in general was ever performed
> > accurately, either?
>
> Maybe it wasn't meant to be accurate at all?

That certainly may be possible! :)

All I can say is that one look at an early Boulez
score tells me that the score couldn't be read in the
alloted time for the composition, let alone played
accurately.

It seems to me like a mutual congratulatory pact between
the composers and the musicians to see who could
be the most outrageously abstarct.

Bill Flavell
>

Uh, your descriptions fit my profile perfectly.

Cordially,
oyarman, AKA, Oz.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Flavell" <bill_flavell@email.com>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 05 Aral�k 2005 Pazartesi 1:21
Subject: [tuning] Re: What I Was Trying to Say Vis-a-Vis Timbre/Tuning?...

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, <oyarman@o...> wrote:
> >
> > THE academic music education establishment as in?
>
>
> Good question, oyarman! :)
>
> Too much of an over-generalization, I'm sure.
>
> I guess university-level music education, but I'm
> only an outsider looking in.
>
> Just the rantings of a frustrated outsider with
> nothing better to do! :)
>
>
> Bill Flavell
>
>

My bias against 12-tET arises from the fact that horrible sounds emenate
from many electronic devices that consider this tuning to be a Godforsaken
standard.

Cordially,
Oz.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Flavell" <bill_flavell@email.com>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 05 Aral�k 2005 Pazartesi 1:25
Subject: [tuning] Re: What I Was Trying to Say Vis-a-Vis Timbre/Tuning?...

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, <oyarman@o...> wrote:
> > >
> > > I also don't think that serial music in general was ever performed
> > > accurately, either?
> >
> > Maybe it wasn't meant to be accurate at all?
>
> That certainly may be possible! :)
>
> All I can say is that one look at an early Boulez
> score tells me that the score couldn't be read in the
> alloted time for the composition, let alone played
> accurately.
>
> It seems to me like a mutual congratulatory pact between
> the composers and the musicians to see who could
> be the most outrageously abstarct.
>
>
> Bill Flavell
> >
>
>
>
>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Flavell" <bill_flavell@e...> >
Bill Flavell
>
>
> PS: Yes, a Schoenberg piece realized via electronic
synthesizer/MIDI
> would qualify as genuinely 12TET to me.
>
> I also don't think that serial music in general was ever performed
> accurately, either?
>

Just a BTW - interestingly, Schoenberg did actually rehearse his
string quartets with a piano, to get the string players to play in
12TET (or the real-world equivalent found on a piano), rather than
their normal inflected tuning - Schoenberg was a great believer
in "literal" 12TET (as opposed to the variety of adjustments, etc.
players actually play).
But yes, I think I get what you're saying - unless a player has
absolutely perfect pitch, in a sense it's impossible to play
intervals of 100, 200, 300 etc. cents - it's more of an
approximation learned by rote. So in those terms, the proposals as
far as alternate tunings are: just intonation, where intervals can
actually be tuned by ear; and other temperaments, in which the
performing situation would be roughly the same as in 12TET.
Chris

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Flavell" <bill_flavell@e...>
wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...>
wrote:
> >
> > Hosw do you define "genuinely 12tet"? If I take a Schoenberg
serial
> > piece and render it electronically, why isn't that genuinely
12tet?
>
>
> PS: Yes, a Schoenberg piece realized via electronic
synthesizer/MIDI
> would qualify as genuinely 12TET to me.
>
> I also don't think that serial music in general was ever performed
> accurately, either?
>

I don't think so myself. Looking at Schoenberg's series there's a
lot of submerged tonality in them. A genuinely 12-t music would be
something electronic that pays no regard to any of the interesting
structures in 12EDO. Boulez' Structures would be a better example,
or perhaps something by Ligeti or Stockhausen.

12EDO is imho *designed* for 5-limit music, so it can never escape
the harmonic environment it 'represents', however badly to some.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <mark@e...> wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Flavell" <bill_flavell@e...>
> wrote:
> >
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hosw do you define "genuinely 12tet"? If I take a
> > > Schoenberg serial piece and render it electronically,
> > > why isn't that genuinely 12tet?
> >
> >
> > PS: Yes, a Schoenberg piece realized via electronic
> > synthesizer/MIDI would qualify as genuinely 12TET to me.
> >
> > I also don't think that serial music in general was ever
> > performed accurately, either?
> >
>
> I don't think so myself. Looking at Schoenberg's series
> there's a lot of submerged tonality in them. A genuinely
> 12-t music would be something electronic that pays no
> regard to any of the interesting structures in 12EDO.
> Boulez' Structures would be a better example,
> or perhaps something by Ligeti or Stockhausen.
>
> 12EDO is imho *designed* for 5-limit music, so it can never
> escape the harmonic environment it 'represents', however
> badly to some.

Schoenberg went so far as to spend a lot of time making
the Kolisch Quartet play his string quartets as closely
as possible in 12-edo, checking their tuning with a
piano ostensibly tuned in 12-edo, during rehearsals.

Milton Babbitt and other composers following him,
working with the RCA synthesizer, made lots of recordings
of serial music tuned precisely in 12-edo.

Also, there's a *ton* of music of all styles and genres
sequenced in MIDI files which is in 12-edo.

-monz
http://tonalsoft.com
Tonescape microtonal music software

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@t...> wrote:

> Also, there's a *ton* of music of all styles and genres
> sequenced in MIDI files which is in 12-edo.

Very often when the tuning is completely inappropriate.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@t...> wrote:
> > I don't think so myself. Looking at Schoenberg's series
> > there's a lot of submerged tonality in them. > Schoenberg went
so far as to spend a lot of time making
> the Kolisch Quartet play his string quartets as closely
> as possible in 12-edo, checking their tuning with a
> piano ostensibly tuned in 12-edo, during rehearsals.
>

I don't disagree that the music was played in 12EDO. What I disagree
with is the premise that the music content (and look how Schoenberg
notates in his scores) is 12EDO. It may be 'serial', but the
notation indicates the line of hearing being definitely in the
5limit, possibly even 7limit. Those composers who use the notation
mechanistically (Stockhausen) are much more 12EDO composers.

Though Schoenberg may have coached the Kolisch in 12EDO, I am of the
view that the reality of performance vis a vis the notation will
result in 5 or 7limit serialism. For example a held fifth (in 4th
Qtt III) will be tuned perfect (or as near perfect as possible),
purely through the ear's tendency to prefer to remove the beating.

And the same probably goes for other intervals

Mark

Mark wrote:
> I don't disagree that the music was played in 12EDO. What I disagree > with is the premise that the music content (and look how Schoenberg > notates in his scores) is 12EDO. It may be 'serial', but the What does this mean? 12EDO is a tuning system, not a compositional style or system of notation...

> notation indicates the line of hearing being definitely in the > 5limit, possibly even 7limit. Those composers who use the notation > mechanistically (Stockhausen) are much more 12EDO composers.
> > Though Schoenberg may have coached the Kolisch in 12EDO, I am of the > view that the reality of performance vis a vis the notation will > result in 5 or 7limit serialism. For example a held fifth (in 4th > Qtt III) will be tuned perfect (or as near perfect as possible), > purely through the ear's tendency to prefer to remove the beating. > > And the same probably goes for other intervals

Also the same is true of other equal temperaments. No one (no one I've heard at least...) completely ignores all harmonic relationships suggested by the temperament they're playing/writing in. Every temperament has relatively consonant and relatively dissonant intervals which musicians using it must acknowlege.

> Mark

Keenan

Hi Mark,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <mark@e...> wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@t...> wrote:
> >
> > > I don't think so myself. Looking at Schoenberg's series
> > > there's a lot of submerged tonality in them.
> >
> > Schoenberg went so far as to spend a lot of time making
> > the Kolisch Quartet play his string quartets as closely
> > as possible in 12-edo, checking their tuning with a
> > piano ostensibly tuned in 12-edo, during rehearsals.
> >
>
> I don't disagree that the music was played in 12EDO.
> What I disagree with is the premise that the music content
> (and look how Schoenberg notates in his scores) is 12EDO.
> It may be 'serial', but the notation indicates the line
> of hearing being definitely in the 5limit, possibly even
> 7limit. Those composers who use the notation mechanistically
> (Stockhausen) are much more 12EDO composers.
>
> Though Schoenberg may have coached the Kolisch in 12EDO,
> I am of the view that the reality of performance vis a vis
> the notation will result in 5 or 7limit serialism. For
> example a held fifth (in 4th Qtt III) will be tuned perfect
> (or as near perfect as possible), purely through the ear's
> tendency to prefer to remove the beating.
>
> And the same probably goes for other intervals

It seems to me that you're assuming something about
Schoenberg's music thru your own interpretation, without
having done research into how he composed, rehearsed,
performed, and wrote about his music.

This is simply not the case with Schoenberg. He deliberately
notated his music after c.1903 following the criteria of
what he deemed to be the "clearest notation", that is,
he always used, for example, C-natural where the 5-limit
harmonic basis would have dictated that it should be B-sharp.
And by 1908, when his music became atonal, he felt no
need at all for B#, E#, Cb, Fb, or any of the double-sharps
and double-flats.

Also, he specifically wrote in his _Harmonielehre_ of 1911
a description of how the 12-tone chromatic scale is
derived from the first 11 partials of F, C, and G.
How correct this he was about this is not the issue, but
it does indicate that in his mind he viewed use of the
chromatic scale as being far beyond 5-limit and even
7-limit harmony. In the _Harmonielehre_ he was thinking
in terms of 11-limit, and in his later lecture "Problems
of Harmony", he gave the same kind of description but
also included ratios of 13.

And the fact plain fact is that the reason why he coached
the Kolisch Quartet so painstakingly in 12-edo was deliberately
so that they would *not* give JI inflections to their intonation.
How others perform his music is another subject for analysis,
but Schoenberg's intentions regarding the intonation of his
music are quite clear.

You'd probably be interested in taking a look at some
of my work on Schoenberg's theories:

http://tonalsoft.com/monzo/schoenberg/harm/monzo-intro.htm

Chapter 4 of _Harmonielehre_ is where he gives his description
of the chromatic scale. Unfortunately this is all still
a "work in progress".

Even less finished is my work on analyzing Schoenberg's
harmonic theories, but there's still a lot there to digest:

http://tonalsoft.com/monzo/schoenberg/harm/1911-1922.htm

If you're seriously interested in non-12-edo serialism,
that does exist too. Probably the prime proponent of it
is Ben Johnston, who composes in extended-JI (up to
31-limit AFAIK).

Johnston's _6th Quartet_ is in 11-limit JI, and is a
serial piece which arranges the 12-tone row as two
hexachords, each of which is a Partchian 1-3-5-7-9-11
hexad, one otonal and the other utonal. I've written
a lot about it here before, at various different times
over the years. If you have the patience to search the
archives, you'll find it.

-monz
http://tonalsoft.com
Tonescape microtonal music theory

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, <oyarman@o...> wrote:
>
> Uh, your descriptions fit my profile perfectly.
>
> Cordially,
> oyarman, AKA, Oz.

You mean the frustrated/ranting outsider part? :) LOL ROTFWL

Bill Flavell

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, <oyarman@o...> wrote:
>
> My bias against 12-tET arises from the fact that horrible sounds
emenate
> from many electronic devices that consider this tuning to be a
Godforsaken
> standard.
>
> Cordially,
> Oz.

Thanks for that insight/info! :)

My bias is that I hear a greater difference/improvement
between 12TET new electronic synths and 12TET acoustic
instruments than I do between 12TET music in general
and non-12TET music, of which I've heard very little.

Bill Flavell

Thanks very much for the response, Mark,
although I'm not sure I understand waht you mean
here. :)

Bill Flavell

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <mark@e...> wrote:
>
> I don't think so myself. Looking at Schoenberg's series there's a
> lot of submerged tonality in them. A genuinely 12-t music would be
> something electronic that pays no regard to any of the interesting
> structures in 12EDO. Boulez' Structures would be a better example,
> or perhaps something by Ligeti or Stockhausen.
>
> 12EDO is imho *designed* for 5-limit music, so it can never escape
> the harmonic environment it 'represents', however badly to some.
>

Thanks for the great response, Chris! :)

Schoenberg also bad-mouthed Stravinsky re Stravinsky's
use of a piano while composing whereas Schoenberg claimed
to compose without using an instrument, at least at the
time of that statement, I guess.

Bill Flavell

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "christopherjohn_smith"
<christopherjohn_smith@y...> wrote:
>
> Just a BTW - interestingly, Schoenberg did actually rehearse his
> string quartets with a piano, to get the string players to play in
> 12TET (or the real-world equivalent found on a piano), rather than
> their normal inflected tuning - Schoenberg was a great believer
> in "literal" 12TET (as opposed to the variety of adjustments, etc.
> players actually play).
> But yes, I think I get what you're saying - unless a player has
> absolutely perfect pitch, in a sense it's impossible to play
> intervals of 100, 200, 300 etc. cents - it's more of an
> approximation learned by rote. So in those terms, the proposals as
> far as alternate tunings are: just intonation, where intervals can
> actually be tuned by ear; and other temperaments, in which the
> performing situation would be roughly the same as in 12TET.
> Chris
>

Yea, big fat hairy deal...

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Flavell" <bill_flavell@email.com>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 08 Aral�k 2005 Per�embe 20:29
Subject: [tuning] Re: Flavell/Oyarman "Profile"? :)

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, <oyarman@o...> wrote:
> >
> > Uh, your descriptions fit my profile perfectly.
> >
> > Cordially,
> > oyarman, AKA, Oz.
>
>
> You mean the frustrated/ranting outsider part? :) LOL ROTFWL
>
>
> Bill Flavell
>
>
>
>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, <oyarman@o...> wrote:
>
> Yea, big fat hairy deal...

Right! :) LOL ROTFWL

The King-Kong Syndrome or Bigfoot? :)

Bill Flavell