Fw: [tuning] Re: Keys and 79 MOS 159-tET

Drat! I just noticed that this haven't gone through... my apologies Carl...

----- Original Message -----
From: Ozan Yarman
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 11 Kasım 2005 Cuma 13:19
Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: Keys and 79 MOS 159-tET

Sorry for the late reply Carl and my condolences for your recent affliction,

----- Original Message -----
From: Carl Lumma
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 06 Kasım 2005 Pazar 21:51
Subject: [tuning] Re: Keys and 79 MOS 159-tET

> In the case of (2), I could imagine your list would be
> a list of cents. But in your case, I thought you had a
> rational interpretation of Maqam music...
>
> I cling to both.

Is one not in some way primary over the other?

Temperament is primary over rational interpretation in my opinion. That is why I insist on a cyclic system instead of an open-ended one.

>> () Some of these ratios have large numbers in them. Are
>> they compound, in the sense that they are reached by
>> stacking certain target intervals?
//
>> large numbers that can be factored.
>> That is, they are formed by the stacking of two primary
>> intervals. Usually (but not always) such intervals appear
>> in scales because they lie a primary interval away from
>> a tone which itself is a primary interval away from the tonic.
>> Example: 15/8 in the classical JI pentatonic scale is not
>> a consonance (primary ratio), but is a 5:4 above 3/2, which
>> itself is 3:2 above the tonic. In listing the primary
>> intervals of the diatonic scale I would list...
>>
>> 5:4
>> 3:2
>> 5:3
>>
>> ...and maybe their inversions, but not 15:8.
>
> You mean whether the intervals can be explained by a
> Partch-scheme where the upper half is a mirror-image of the
> lower half where the period is a tritone?

No! I'm just trying to figure out what intervals are
important to you *in a single key* or *local area of playing*.

Ex. Even though the traditional JI diatonic scale contains
a 15:8, it is not a *consonance* in diatonic music.
I realize Maqam Music might not have this principle of
consonances on top of scale tones -- this is but an example.

Why would 8:10:12:15 be a non-consonant chord in a diatonic music? You are saying 15:8 is not listed because Zarlino's JI scale can be divided into two indentical tetrachords and a single one is sufficient to define consonace. From that perspective, you can consider the first tetrachord from Rast to Chargah sufficient. There, I have given the principle intervals you need if you will just replicate their fourth and fifth counterparts as required.

> Now I don't know if Maqam music employs the concept of
> primary consonances (does it?) or even primary
> intervals (does it?)....
>
> I have developed a firm faith during my stay in the tuning
>list that higher primes and primary consonances do matter. At
>least they should be the target intervals in a temperament,
>which nevertheless stays cyclic the way I demonstrated.

I'm referring not to primes, but to compound numbers.

Compound numbers as in?

Cordially,
Ozan

> > In the case of (2), I could imagine your list would be
> > a list of cents. But in your case, I thought you had a
> > rational interpretation of Maqam music...
> >
> > I cling to both.
>
> Is one not in some way primary over the other?
>
> Temperament is primary over rational interpretation in my
> opinion.

I didn't mean temperament per se... usually field measurements
of musicians are in cents. I'm trying to determine where your
numbers are coming from.

> >> () Some of these ratios have large numbers in them. Are
> >> they compound, in the sense that they are reached by
> >> stacking certain target intervals?
//
> No! I'm just trying to figure out what intervals are
> important to you *in a single key* or *local area of playing*.
>
> Ex. Even though the traditional JI diatonic scale contains
> a 15:8, it is not a *consonance* in diatonic music.
> I realize Maqam Music might not have this principle of
> consonances on top of scale tones -- this is but an example.
>
> Why would 8:10:12:15 be a non-consonant chord in a diatonic
> music?

Sorry, I should have said "common practice" music. Only
triads are considered onsonances in this form.

> > Now I don't know if Maqam music employs the concept of
> > primary consonances (does it?) or even primary
> > intervals (does it?)....
> >
> > I have developed a firm faith during my stay in the tuning
> >list that higher primes and primary consonances do matter. At
> >least they should be the target intervals in a temperament,
> >which nevertheless stays cyclic the way I demonstrated.
>
> I'm referring not to primes, but to compound numbers.
>
> Compound numbers as in?

25 is a compound number. 5 is a prime.

-Carl