two premieres /this friday /barnstall 8:30

1. premiere of
the nuclear family
performing
Gendhing Namaste

performers

rachel arnold
erin barnes
cory beers
jessica catron
jeremy drake
kraig grady- dir.
katie mcmurran
adam overton
melinda rice
mike robbins
rich west

3.Steve Gregoropolos's Symphony no.1
perfomed by w.a.c.o. and equal number of guest performers

2. two lieder: When I am Laid by Purcell sung by Claire McKeown played by Anna Simpson and
Erhebung by Schoenberg played on violin by Paula Yoo and on piano by Anna Simpson

8:30 pm for $10
tickets at the door, or at sea level
or at
http://www.ticketweb.com/t3/sale/SaleEventDetail?dispatch=loadSelectionData&pl=&eventId=24537 <http://www.ticketweb.com/t3/sale/SaleEventDetail?dispatch=loadSelectionData&pl=&eventId=24537>

very large amount of work into this one and now it's time to take it out and use it.
<>music to be heard- steve gregoropolos

likewise!-kraig grady
--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

Hi all,

I noticed that if you stretch the octave about 1 to 4 cents in meantone, you don't need to temper fifths fully as much to get nice sounding 5/4s. The 7/4s are well preserved too. Is there any prior work on this out there? I can see one small drawback, that fourths are compromised somewhat, but overall I like the sound better than when tempering only the fifths.

Another interesting thing I noticed was that if you instead stretch the fifth to around 710 cents, you get very nice approximations of 8/7 and 7/6. Two fifths make an interval of 16/7. There is little benefit from tempering the octave in this scale. You also get beautiful major triads in three positions:

F G# C
Bb C# F
Eb F# Bb

Seems perfect for those who want to experiment with 7-limit harmony or if you prefer major seconds of 8/7 instead of 9/8 or 10/9. I find this scale very refreshing with it's bold step sizes. It also has a nice 11/8 between
A and Eb and nice approximations to 9/7 all over the place.

Since the nice approximation to 5/4 doesn't appear at the same place as in schismic (9 fifths up instead of 8 fifths down), could this be called superschismic or does it have some other nice name?

Magnus Jonsson

Hi Magnus,

> I noticed that if you stretch the octave about 1 to 4 cents in
> meantone, you don't need to temper fifths fully as much to get
> nice sounding 5/4s. // Is there any prior work on this out
> there?

TOP meantone, as developed by Paul Erlich, has stretched
octaves like this.

> Another interesting thing I noticed was that if you instead
> stretch the fifth to around 710 cents, you get very nice
> approximations of 8/7 and 7/6. Two fifths make an interval
> of 16/7. There is little benefit from tempering the octave
> in this scale. You also get beautiful major triads in three
> positions:
>
> F G# C
> Bb C# F
> Eb F# Bb
//
> Since the nice approximation to 5/4 doesn't appear at the
> same place as in schismic (9 fifths up instead of 8 fifths
> down), could this be called superschismic or does it have
> some other nice name?

That's known as superpythagorean.

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@y...> wrote:
>
> Hi Magnus,
>
> > I noticed that if you stretch the octave about 1 to 4 cents in
> > meantone, you don't need to temper fifths fully as much to get
> > nice sounding 5/4s. // Is there any prior work on this out
> > there?
>
> TOP meantone, as developed by Paul Erlich, has stretched
> octaves like this.

It would be interesting to know who has considered stretched octaves.
My Zeta function stuff would be another example.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Magnus Jonsson <magnus@s...> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I noticed that if you stretch the octave about 1 to 4 cents in
meantone,
> you don't need to temper fifths fully as much to get nice sounding
5/4s.
> The 7/4s are well preserved too. Is there any prior work on this
out
> there? I can see one small drawback, that fourths are compromised
> somewhat, but overall I like the sound better than when tempering
only the
> fifths.

I see that someone's already informed you of my TOP meantone, where
the octaves are 1201.7 centes.

> Another interesting thing I noticed was that if you instead stretch
the
> fifth to around 710 cents, you get very nice approximations of 8/7
and
> 7/6. Two fifths make an interval of 16/7. There is little benefit
from
> tempering the octave in this scale.

I disagree. I suggest a 1197.6-cent octave here (or 1197.7 cents if
you don't care about prime 5).

> You also get
> beautiful major triads in three positions:
>
> F G# C
> Bb C# F
> Eb F# Bb
>
> Seems perfect for those who want to experiment with 7-limit harmony
or if
> you prefer major seconds of 8/7 instead of 9/8 or 10/9.

And insist on a diatonic basis.

> Since the nice approximation to 5/4 doesn't appear at the same
place as
> in schismic (9 fifths up instead of 8 fifths down), could this be
called
> superschismic or does it have some other nice name?

It's been referred to as Superpythagorean or Superpyth for short. I'd
like to send you my new paper if you could provide me with your snail-
mail address.

> > Hi Magnus,
> >
> > > I noticed that if you stretch the octave about 1 to 4 cents in
> > > meantone, you don't need to temper fifths fully as much to get
> > > nice sounding 5/4s. // Is there any prior work on this out
> > > there?
> >
> > TOP meantone, as developed by Paul Erlich, has stretched
> > octaves like this.
>
> It would be interesting to know who has considered stretched octaves.
> My Zeta function stuff would be another example.

What are the parameters for your Zeta thing? Just a number of
notes?

-Carl

On Mon, 14 Nov 2005, wallyesterpaulrus wrote:

>> superschismic or does it have some other nice name?
>
> It's been referred to as Superpythagorean or Superpyth for short. I'd
> like to send you my new paper if you could provide me with your snail-
> mail address.

That would be really cool. I'll send my address in a private email.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@y...> wrote:

> What are the parameters for your Zeta thing? Just a number of
> notes?

More or less. Look in a region near to the number of notes, and
integrate |Z(n)| between two zeros. Often there will be one large
value, but sometimes more than one.

> > What are the parameters for your Zeta thing? Just a number of
> > notes?
>
> More or less. Look in a region near to the number of notes, and
> integrate |Z(n)| between two zeros. Often there will be one large
> value, but sometimes more than one.

One thing I'm curious about with the flat octave for 12...
even though it seems like 5:4, 5:2, 7:4 are all wanting to
be flatter than 12-ET, what about their inversions?
Wouldn't the worsening of these cancel things out?

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@y...> wrote:

> One thing I'm curious about with the flat octave for 12...
> even though it seems like 5:4, 5:2, 7:4 are all wanting to
> be flatter than 12-ET, what about their inversions?
> Wouldn't the worsening of these cancel things out?

5/4, 5/2, and 5 get increasingly corrected, which makes sense. 8/5, 16/5
and 32/5 become worse, but they are not as important.

Most fretted-string instruments(like setrar and tar) in iranian music
are mostly fretted in stretched octave systems.

________________________________

From: tuning@yahoogroups.com [mailto:tuning@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Gene Ward Smith
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2005 12:48 AM
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [tuning] Re: Octave stretch meantone

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@y...> wrote:
>
> Hi Magnus,
>
> > I noticed that if you stretch the octave about 1 to 4 cents in
> > meantone, you don't need to temper fifths fully as much to get
> > nice sounding 5/4s. // Is there any prior work on this out
> > there?
>
> TOP meantone, as developed by Paul Erlich, has stretched
> octaves like this.

It would be interesting to know who has considered stretched octaves.
My Zeta function stuff would be another example.

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Gene Ward Smith wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@y...> wrote:
> >>Hi Magnus,
>>
>>
>>>I noticed that if you stretch the octave about 1 to 4 cents in
>>>meantone, you don't need to temper fifths fully as much to get
>>>nice sounding 5/4s. // Is there any prior work on this out
>>>there? >>
>>TOP meantone, as developed by Paul Erlich, has stretched
>>octaves like this.
> > > It would be interesting to know who has considered stretched octaves.
> My Zeta function stuff would be another example.

I used to use a 1/7-comma meantone with octaves stretched by 1/7 of a comma, until TOP meantone came along. I have a version of the canon that illustrates this tuning:

http://www.io.com/~hmiller/midi/canon-1-7-comma-stretched.mid

Compare with TOP meantone:

http://www.io.com/~hmiller/midi/canon-top-meantone.mid

I mentioned the 1/7-comma stretched meantone on the tuning list a while back, but I don't remember exactly when it was (probably around the time I was putting the warped canon page together, early 2001).

Herman, for some reason I found your version of stretched octaves to be more
pleasant.

Cordially,
Ozan

----- Original Message -----
From: "Herman Miller" <hmiller@IO.COM>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 15 Kas�m 2005 Sal� 6:58
Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: Octave stretch meantone

>
> I used to use a 1/7-comma meantone with octaves stretched by 1/7 of a
> comma, until TOP meantone came along. I have a version of the canon that
> illustrates this tuning:
>
> http://www.io.com/~hmiller/midi/canon-1-7-comma-stretched.mid
>
> Compare with TOP meantone:
>
> http://www.io.com/~hmiller/midi/canon-top-meantone.mid
>
> I mentioned the 1/7-comma stretched meantone on the tuning list a while
> back, but I don't remember exactly when it was (probably around the time
> I was putting the warped canon page together, early 2001).
>
>

I think it is easier to tell the instruments apart in Herman's version than in the TOP version. It sounds more animated too.

In my informal listening tests with a custom VSTi built only for this purpose only, I found 2.5 cents stretch to be good. That seems to land almost in the middle between 1/7 of a comma (~3 cents) and TOP's 1.7 cents. If people are interested in this VSTi I can make it available (OS X & Windows).

I also wrote a computer program to calculate an "optimal" stretch. It suggested only 1.1 cents stretch (and fifths of 697.3 cents). I guess my program's model of what sounds good doesn't match up exactly with what my ears think.

--Magnus Jonsson

On Tue, 15 Nov 2005 oyarman@ozanyarman.com wrote:

> Herman, for some reason I found your version of stretched octaves to be more
> pleasant.
>
> Cordially,
> Ozan
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Herman Miller" <hmiller@IO.COM>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: 15 Kas1m 2005 Sal1 6:58
> Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: Octave stretch meantone
>
>>
>> I used to use a 1/7-comma meantone with octaves stretched by 1/7 of a
>> comma, until TOP meantone came along. I have a version of the canon that
>> illustrates this tuning:
>>
>> http://www.io.com/~hmiller/midi/canon-1-7-comma-stretched.mid
>>
>> Compare with TOP meantone:
>>
>> http://www.io.com/~hmiller/midi/canon-top-meantone.mid
>>
>> I mentioned the 1/7-comma stretched meantone on the tuning list a while
>> back, but I don't remember exactly when it was (probably around the time
>> I was putting the warped canon page together, early 2001).
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> You can configure your subscription by sending an empty email to one
> of these addresses (from the address at which you receive the list):
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--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@y...> wrote:
>
> > > What are the parameters for your Zeta thing? Just a number of
> > > notes?
> >
> > More or less. Look in a region near to the number of notes, and
> > integrate |Z(n)| between two zeros. Often there will be one large
> > value, but sometimes more than one.
>
> One thing I'm curious about with the flat octave for 12...
> even though it seems like 5:4, 5:2, 7:4 are all wanting to
> be flatter than 12-ET, what about their inversions?
> Wouldn't the worsening of these cancel things out?
>
> -Carl

Hopefully you understand this at least in the TOP case -- their
inversions are more complex ratios, and thus carry less weight.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Herman Miller <hmiller@I...> wrote:
>
> Gene Ward Smith wrote:
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@y...> wrote:
> >
> >>Hi Magnus,
> >>
> >>
> >>>I noticed that if you stretch the octave about 1 to 4 cents in
> >>>meantone, you don't need to temper fifths fully as much to get
> >>>nice sounding 5/4s. // Is there any prior work on this out
> >>>there?
> >>
> >>TOP meantone, as developed by Paul Erlich, has stretched
> >>octaves like this.
> >
> >
> > It would be interesting to know who has considered stretched
octaves.
> > My Zeta function stuff would be another example.
>
> I used to use a 1/7-comma meantone with octaves stretched by 1/7 of
a
> comma, until TOP meantone came along. I have a version of the canon
that
> illustrates this tuning:
>
> http://www.io.com/~hmiller/midi/canon-1-7-comma-stretched.mid
>
> Compare with TOP meantone:
>
> http://www.io.com/~hmiller/midi/canon-top-meantone.mid
>
> I mentioned the 1/7-comma stretched meantone on the tuning list a
while
> back, but I don't remember exactly when it was (probably around the
time
> I was putting the warped canon page together, early 2001).

I remember it well because it was a counterexample to the method Dave
Keenan thought he found for optimally distributing commas. It was
optimal by his definition but wasn't what his method found (IIRC).

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus" > > I mentioned
the 1/7-comma stretched meantone on the tuning list a
> while
> > back, but I don't remember exactly when it was (probably around
the
> time
> > I was putting the warped canon page together, early 2001).
>
> I remember it well because it was a counterexample to the method
Dave
> Keenan thought he found for optimally distributing commas. It was
> optimal by his definition but wasn't what his method found (IIRC).
>

That's right. I suppose I should have changed the title of this
article, but I simply added the Erattum at the end in the hope that
someone would soon figure out how to fix the algorithm.
http://dkeenan.com/Music/DistributingCommas.htm

-- Dave Keenan