Keys and 79 MOS 159-tET

Carl,
----- Original Message -----
From: Carl Lumma
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 31 Ekim 2005 Pazartesi 1:42
Subject: Re: to ozan:[tuning] otonal and utonal

> Can you list the basic, most important intervals required in
> any given key so that one may perform Maqam music? Not
> including approximations, mind you... what are the true
> desired targets?
>
> Dear Carl, a full list would have to wait for my doctorate
> dissertation as I am accustomed to say. Still, here is list of
> common intervals which I deem important:

Thanks Ozan. But I still have some concerns:

() I think the formatting of the table my not be right on my
machine. I don't require the Scala E79 notation column, if
that helps.

You may want to download my 3rd Doctorate Thesis Report at:

http://www.ozanyarman.com/mainpage/academic.html

Which contains a thorough analysis of 79 MOS 159-tET.

() Shall I take it that your targets are ratios here? In
that case I don't need the cents column either.

Oh yes you do. All those ratios are tempered.

() What are the ratios in parenthesis?

Alternative ratios.

() Why is there sometimes more than one ratio per line,
even outside paranthesis?

Highly variable relative frequency spectrum between two JI intervals, which is otherwise fixed in 79 MOS 159-tET.

() Some of these ratios have large numbers in them. Are
they compound, in the sense that they are reached by
stacking certain target intervals?

You mean ratios containing high primes? Higher harmonic partials are the only way I know to acquire them. Maybe you know some other way?

Since you have said
that Maqam music has "key", I seek only the targets needed
in a single key, not those needed over the course of an
entire piece if it modulates.

I have provided the ones you need. Those and their transpositions a fourth and fifth above.

Also, if some targets are
used in certain Maqams and not in others, it would be
helpful to group them by Maqam.

Yes, this is exactly what I aim to do with each Maqam in my dissertation.

With continued effort to understand your 79-MOS scale,

-Carl

Cordially,
Ozan

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@s...> wrote:

> You may want to download my 3rd Doctorate Thesis Report at:
>
> http://www.ozanyarman.com/mainpage/academic.html
>
> Which contains a thorough analysis of 79 MOS 159-tET.

I doubt Carl reads Turkish.

> > Dear Carl, a full list would have to wait for my doctorate
> > dissertation as I am accustomed to say. Still, here is list of
> > common intervals which I deem important:
>
> Thanks Ozan. But I still have some concerns:
>
> () I think the formatting of the table my not be right on my
> machine. I don't require the Scala E79 notation column, if
> that helps.
>
> You may want to download my 3rd Doctorate Thesis Report at:
>
> http://www.ozanyarman.com/mainpage/academic.html
>
> Which contains a thorough analysis of 79 MOS 159-tET.

All in Türkce, no? Looks promising; I wish I could read it.

> () Shall I take it that your targets are ratios here? In
> that case I don't need the cents column either.
>
> Oh yes you do. All those ratios are tempered.

I know that, but I'm interested for the time being in the
target intervals you want, not how you've tempered them.
Let me ask: how did you arrive at your list of target
intervals?

(1) Lists of past theoreticians?
(2) Field measurements?
(3) Personal experience?
(4) etc.

In the case of (2), I could imagine your list would be
a list of cents. But in your case, I thought you had a
rational interpretation of Maqam music... Trying to
understand that first, then understand your 79-of-159.

> () What are the ratios in parenthesis?
>
> Alternative ratios.

Ok.

> () Some of these ratios have large numbers in them. Are
> they compound, in the sense that they are reached by
> stacking certain target intervals?
>
> You mean ratios containing high primes?

No, just the opposite: large numbers that can be factored.
That is, they are formed by the stacking of two primary
intervals. Usually (but not always) such intervals appear
in scales because they lie a primary interval away from
a tone which itself is a primary interval away from the tonic.
Example: 15/8 in the classical JI pentatonic scale is not
a consonance (primary ratio), but is a 5:4 above 3/2, which
itself is 3:2 above the tonic. In listing the primary
intervals of the diatonic scale I would list...

5:4
3:2
5:3

...and maybe their inversions, but not 15:8.

Now I don't know if Maqam music employs the concept of
primary consonances (does it?) or even primary
intervals (does it?)....

> Since you have said that Maqam music has "key", I seek
> only the targets needed in a single key, not those
> needed over the course of an entire piece if it modulates.
>
>
> I have provided the ones you need. Those and their
> transpositions a fourth and fifth above.

Can you list them once more for me, just the ratios or the
cents (whichever are primary), since otherwise I am bound
to get confused.

As for the transpositions... are these needed only when
the key-center of the Maqam changes, or are they part of
the tonic universe?

> Also, if some targets are
> used in certain Maqams and not in others, it would be
> helpful to group them by Maqam.
>
> Yes, this is exactly what I aim to do with each Maqam in my
dissertation.

Aha! Perhaps then doing the same here, perhaps just for the
1 or 2 most popular Maqams...

-Carl

I doubt you can Gene. har har. 8-)
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene Ward Smith
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 02 Kasım 2005 Çarşamba 2:39
Subject: [tuning] Re: Keys and 79 MOS 159-tET

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@s...> wrote:

> You may want to download my 3rd Doctorate Thesis Report at:
>
> http://www.ozanyarman.com/mainpage/academic.html
>
> Which contains a thorough analysis of 79 MOS 159-tET.

I doubt Carl reads Turkish.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@s...> wrote:
>
> I doubt you can Gene. har har. 8-)

Fortunately, Turkish mathematicians don't write in Turkish.

That's why you are a mathematician, and I am a musician. You read formulas, I read notes. 8-)

----- Original Message -----
From: Gene Ward Smith
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 02 Kasım 2005 Çarşamba 3:53
Subject: [tuning] Re: Keys and 79 MOS 159-tET

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@s...> wrote:
>
> I doubt you can Gene. har har. 8-)

Fortunately, Turkish mathematicians don't write in Turkish.

> That's why you are a mathematician, and I am a musician.
> You read formulas, I read notes. 8-)

Gene's written some very interesting music. Folks seem to
assume that he's a mathematician only, but it isn't true.
Though he admits he's too clumsy to play traditional
musical instruments. (Aren't we all?)

http://66.98.148.43/~xenharmo/gene.html

-Carl

I didn't say he wasn't a composer, and by the looks of it, he is a very capable microtonal composer. It's just that his mind seems to work more like a mathematician than a musician. I wonder if he employed a score to compose those excellent pieces of his? Gene, how did you compose them, and what is the hardware/software you use, can you tell me in detail please?

Cordially,
Ozan

----- Original Message -----
From: Carl Lumma
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 02 Kasım 2005 Çarşamba 8:23
Subject: [tuning] Re: Keys and 79 MOS 159-tET

> That's why you are a mathematician, and I am a musician.
> You read formulas, I read notes. 8-)

Gene's written some very interesting music. Folks seem to
assume that he's a mathematician only, but it isn't true.
Though he admits he's too clumsy to play traditional
musical instruments. (Aren't we all?)

http://66.98.148.43/~xenharmo/gene.html

-Carl

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Gene,

May I direct you to the writings of the late Turkish Algebraist, Cahit Arf who published in the *Fen Fakultesi Mecmuasi*, a periodical put out by the University of Istanbul.

They are all in Turkish.

He did publish also in other European languages as well.

Can Akkoc

Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@svpal.org> wrote:
--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@s...> wrote:
>
> I doubt you can Gene. har har. 8-)

Fortunately, Turkish mathematicians don't write in Turkish.

You can configure your subscription by sending an empty email to one
of these addresses (from the address at which you receive the list):
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tuning-nomail@yahoogroups.com - turn off mail from the group.
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tuning-help@yahoogroups.com - receive general help information.

---------------------------------
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---------------------------------

Can Akko�
University of South Alabama
College of Medicine
Mobile, Alabama
USA

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@y...> wrote:
> Gene's written some very interesting music.

Yes.

> Folks seem to
> assume that he's a mathematician only, but it isn't true.

He's a composer as well.

> Though he admits he's too clumsy to play traditional
> musical instruments. (Aren't we all?)

No, we aren't. (Just to keep the record straight)

Cheers,
Jon

Errm, formulas and notes are both not so different in turkish and in
english, are they?
And besides that, we all read both, don't we?

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@s...> wrote:
>
> That's why you are a mathematician, and I am a musician. You read
formulas, I read notes. 8-)
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Gene Ward Smith
> To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: 02 Kasým 2005 Çarþamba 3:53
> Subject: [tuning] Re: Keys and 79 MOS 159-tET
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@s...> wrote:
> >
> > I doubt you can Gene. har har. 8-)
>
> Fortunately, Turkish mathematicians don't write in Turkish.
>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@s...> wrote:
>
> I didn't say he wasn't a composer, and by the looks of it, he is a
very capable microtonal composer. It's just that his mind seems to
work more like a mathematician than a musician. I wonder if he
employed a score to compose those excellent pieces of his? Gene, how
did you compose them, and what is the hardware/software you use, can
you tell me in detail please?

I composed them using Scala and Maple, and using various wierd methods
which it would take a long time to explain. But It's nice to see this
interest; I had given up composing, with various projects hanging
fire, since I became tired of the criticism.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Can Akkoc <can193849@y...> wrote:
>
> Gene,
>
> May I direct you to the writings of the late Turkish Algebraist,
Cahit Arf who published in the *Fen Fakultesi Mecmuasi*, a periodical
put out by the University of Istanbul.
>
> They are all in Turkish.
>
> He did publish also in other European languages as well.

I've seen a volume of Arf's collected works, and they were in all
French, German, English, etc. No Turkish. If Arf is like most
mathematicians, he would be quite willing to write an expository
article in Turkish, but not a major research paper. It would be common
enough to do the thesis in the language of the home country, even if
that was not a commonly used international language, so long as it had
developed enough recongized mathematical terminology to do so. But
then the main results of the thesis would likely be published in an
international journal in one of the big mathematical languages, with a
strong tendency these days to favor English.

Arf was a major player in the international world of research
mathematicians, and like other major players he published in languages
which could be widely read.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "hstraub64" <hstraub64@t...> wrote:
>
> Errm, formulas and notes are both not so different in turkish and in
> english, are they?
> And besides that, we all read both, don't we?

I dunno. Hasse learned Turkish, I understand, but that was because he
*liked* Turkish, not to read it for mathematics.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@s...> wrote:
>
> It's just that his mind seems to work more like a mathematician than a
> musician.

Now that's a subject to my taste :-)
Dunno - I tend to think that the two minds do not work that
differently at all... There is a nice word by Leibniz, who calls music
"unconscious calculation of the soul"...
--
Hans Straub

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@y...> wrote:

> Example: 15/8 in the classical JI pentatonic scale

I thought the classical JI pentatonic scale would be something like 1/1-
9/8-5/4-3/2-5/3, or at any rate an anhemitonic pentatonic of some kind
which has no minor seconds (and thus no 15:8s). What "classical JI
pentatonic" did you have in mind, and where did you find it?

You shouldn't give in to taunts and insults Gene, I personally wouldn't.

----- Original Message -----
From: Gene Ward Smith
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 02 Kasım 2005 Çarşamba 22:30
Subject: [tuning] Re: Keys and 79 MOS 159-tET

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@s...> wrote:
>
> I didn't say he wasn't a composer, and by the looks of it, he is a
very capable microtonal composer. It's just that his mind seems to
work more like a mathematician than a musician. I wonder if he
employed a score to compose those excellent pieces of his? Gene, how
did you compose them, and what is the hardware/software you use, can
you tell me in detail please?

I composed them using Scala and Maple, and using various wierd methods
which it would take a long time to explain. But It's nice to see this
interest; I had given up composing, with various projects hanging
fire, since I became tired of the criticism.

"unconscious calculation" is what seperates music from mathematics, no?
----- Original Message -----
From: hstraub64
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 03 Kasım 2005 Perşembe 11:02
Subject: [tuning] Re: Keys and 79 MOS 159-tET

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@s...> wrote:
>
> It's just that his mind seems to work more like a mathematician than a
> musician.

Now that's a subject to my taste :-)
Dunno - I tend to think that the two minds do not work that
differently at all... There is a nice word by Leibniz, who calls music
"unconscious calculation of the soul"...
--
Hans Straub

If you only knew how Turkish Maqam musicians are accustomed to reading notes...
----- Original Message -----
From: hstraub64
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 02 Kasım 2005 Çarşamba 18:50
Subject: [tuning] Re: Keys and 79 MOS 159-tET

Errm, formulas and notes are both not so different in turkish and in
english, are they?
And besides that, we all read both, don't we?

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@s...> wrote:
>
> That's why you are a mathematician, and I am a musician. You read
formulas, I read notes. 8-)

> > Example: 15/8 in the classical JI pentatonic scale
>
> I thought the classical JI pentatonic scale would be...

Oops, I meant diatonic. -C.

Hi Gene and Ozan,

> > > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@s...>
wrote:
> > >
> > > I didn't say he wasn't a composer, and by the looks
> > > of it, he is a very capable microtonal composer. It's
> > > just that his mind seems to work more like a mathematician
> > > than a musician.

Gene *is* a mathematician ... and in my opinion has recently
contributed some of the deepest and most valuable concepts
to the mathematical foundations of tuning theory.

> > From: Gene Ward Smith
> >
> > I composed them using Scala and Maple, and using various
> > wierd methods which it would take a long time to explain.
> > But It's nice to see this interest; I had given up
> > composing, with various projects hanging fire, since
> > I became tired of the criticism.
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@s...> wrote:
>
> You shouldn't give in to taunts and insults Gene,
> I personally wouldn't.

Gene, i like a *lot* of your compositions, and hope that
you keep composing ... hopefully creating some in Tonescape.

;-)

-monz
http://tonalsoft.com
Tonescape microtonal music software

On Friday 04 November 2005 1:58 am, monz wrote:

> Gene, i like a *lot* of your compositions, and hope that
> you keep composing ... hopefully creating some in Tonescape.

I think Gene has a very original and creative mind, and I want to encourage
him to create more music. I know I had some comments about the overall form
of some works that didn't do it for me, at least once, but I hope I conveyed
an encouraging spirit, not the message that he ought to stop composing.

I really enjoyed certain pieces....'Ostinato on a Difference Set' stands out.
Interestingly, when you read Gene's notes about it, he says it was an overtly
mathematical piece. Anyway, I would welcome seconds of *that* on my plate
anytime....

Carl Lumma was just in Chicago, and he played 'drop the needle' with me, and
something of Gene was on, and my eyebrows raised, and I said with interest
"What's this?". It was, I think, the Clinton Variations, which I hadn't heard
before. I rememeber then asking all sorts of questions about how Gene works
with Maple, etc. some of which Carl knew, some not.

If you'd care to share any of this, Gene, let us know!

BTW, Gene, have you ever thought of working with Markov chains, like David
Cope does?

Best,
Aaron.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Krister Johnson <aaron@a...> wrote:

> Carl Lumma was just in Chicago, and he played 'drop the needle'
> with me, and something of Gene was on, and my eyebrows raised,
> and I said with interest "What's this?". It was, I think, the
> Clinton Variations, which I hadn't heard before.

Clinton Variations is one of my favorites of Gene's pieces.

-monz
http://tonalsoft.com
Tonescape microtonal music software

Carl,
----- Original Message -----
From: Carl Lumma
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 02 Kasım 2005 Çarşamba 2:45
Subject: [tuning] Re: Keys and 79 MOS 159-tET

> You may want to download my 3rd Doctorate Thesis Report at:
>
> http://www.ozanyarman.com/mainpage/academic.html
>
> Which contains a thorough analysis of 79 MOS 159-tET.

All in Türkce, no? Looks promising; I wish I could read it.

These should make it into my dissertation.

> () Shall I take it that your targets are ratios here? In
> that case I don't need the cents column either.
>
> Oh yes you do. All those ratios are tempered.

I know that, but I'm interested for the time being in the
target intervals you want, not how you've tempered them.
Let me ask: how did you arrive at your list of target
intervals?

(1) Lists of past theoreticians?
(2) Field measurements?
(3) Personal experience?
(4) etc.

All of the above, and intuition too I guess.

In the case of (2), I could imagine your list would be
a list of cents. But in your case, I thought you had a
rational interpretation of Maqam music...

I cling to both.

> () Some of these ratios have large numbers in them. Are
> they compound, in the sense that they are reached by
> stacking certain target intervals?
>
> You mean ratios containing high primes?

No, just the opposite: large numbers that can be factored.
That is, they are formed by the stacking of two primary
intervals. Usually (but not always) such intervals appear
in scales because they lie a primary interval away from
a tone which itself is a primary interval away from the tonic.
Example: 15/8 in the classical JI pentatonic scale is not
a consonance (primary ratio), but is a 5:4 above 3/2, which
itself is 3:2 above the tonic. In listing the primary
intervals of the diatonic scale I would list...

5:4
3:2
5:3

...and maybe their inversions, but not 15:8.

You mean whether the intervals can be explained by a Partch-scheme where the upper half is a mirror-image of the lower half where the period is a tritone?

Now I don't know if Maqam music employs the concept of
primary consonances (does it?) or even primary
intervals (does it?)....

I have developed a firm faith during my stay in the tuning list that higher primes and primary consonances do matter. At least they should be the target intervals in a temperament, which nevertheless stays cyclic the way I demonstrated.

> Since you have said that Maqam music has "key", I seek
> only the targets needed in a single key, not those
> needed over the course of an entire piece if it modulates.
>
>
> I have provided the ones you need. Those and their
> transpositions a fourth and fifth above.

Can you list them once more for me, just the ratios or the
cents (whichever are primary), since otherwise I am bound
to get confused.

This is still very much incomplete in my opinion:

RAST 1/1

25/24 (24/23)
20/19 (256/243)
16/15
15/14
14/13 and 13/12 (27/25)
12/11
11/10
10/9

DUGAH 9/8

81/68 (32/27)
6/5
17/14
11/9
16/13 (21/17)
segah/ussaq down from here 36/29 (31/25)

SEGAH 5/4
buselik 81/64
nishabur? 14/11 (51/40 and 23/18)

CHARGAH 4/3

NEVA 3/2

hisar (in Huzzam Maqam) 48/29 (28/17)
hisarek (Hisar in Segah Maqam) 5/3 specifically
HUSEYNI 5/3 and 27/16
huseyni once more 27/16 specifically (17/10)

EWDJ 15/8
mahur 243/128
mahurek? 21/11

GERDANIYE 2/1

As for the transpositions... are these needed only when
the key-center of the Maqam changes, or are they part of
the tonic universe?

The key-center frequency of a Maqam is associated with Ahenk/Diapason. A Kemancha playing the Rast Maqam's primary scale's primary mode in Sipurde Ahenk sounds the natural diatonic gamut from C4 to C5. The equivalent Ney plays an octave higher, the Tanbur, without changing its tuning, an octave lower.

If we were to reserve the term transposition for Ahenk changes, we would be hard-pressed to use the term modulation to mean:

1. Diatonical modulations within a Maqam (octave species)
2. Chromatic (12 tone via 79?) modulations within a Maqam (unequal transpositions)

Both are part of the tonic universe of the Maqamat.

> Also, if some targets are
> used in certain Maqams and not in others, it would be
> helpful to group them by Maqam.
>
> Yes, this is exactly what I aim to do with each Maqam in my
dissertation.

Aha! Perhaps then doing the same here, perhaps just for the
1 or 2 most popular Maqams...

-Carl

Aw, you want me to give you spoilers. tsk tsk!

Cordially,
Ozan

>> > http://www.ozanyarman.com/mainpage/academic.html
>> >
>> > ... contains a thorough analysis of 79 MOS 159-tET.
>>
>> All in Türkce, no? Looks promising; I wish I could read it.
>
> These should make it into my dissertation.

Good.

>> I know that, but I'm interested for the time being in the
>> target intervals you want, not how you've tempered them.
>> Let me ask: how did you arrive at your list of target
>> intervals?
>>
>> (1) Lists of past theoreticians?
>> (2) Field measurements?
>> (3) Personal experience?
>> (4) etc.
>
> All of the above, and intuition too I guess.

Ok...

> In the case of (2), I could imagine your list would be
> a list of cents. But in your case, I thought you had a
> rational interpretation of Maqam music...
>
> I cling to both.

Is one not in some way primary over the other?

>> () Some of these ratios have large numbers in them. Are
>> they compound, in the sense that they are reached by
>> stacking certain target intervals?
//
>> large numbers that can be factored.
>> That is, they are formed by the stacking of two primary
>> intervals. Usually (but not always) such intervals appear
>> in scales because they lie a primary interval away from
>> a tone which itself is a primary interval away from the tonic.
>> Example: 15/8 in the classical JI pentatonic scale is not
>> a consonance (primary ratio), but is a 5:4 above 3/2, which
>> itself is 3:2 above the tonic. In listing the primary
>> intervals of the diatonic scale I would list...
>>
>> 5:4
>> 3:2
>> 5:3
>>
>> ...and maybe their inversions, but not 15:8.
>
> You mean whether the intervals can be explained by a
> Partch-scheme where the upper half is a mirror-image of the
> lower half where the period is a tritone?

No! I'm just trying to figure out what intervals are
important to you *in a single key* or *local area of playing*.

Ex. Even though the traditional JI diatonic scale contains
a 15:8, it is not a *consonance* in diatonic music.
I realize Maqam Music might not have this principle of
consonances on top of scale tones -- this is but an example.

> Now I don't know if Maqam music employs the concept of
> primary consonances (does it?) or even primary
> intervals (does it?)....
>
> I have developed a firm faith during my stay in the tuning
>list that higher primes and primary consonances do matter. At
>least they should be the target intervals in a temperament,
>which nevertheless stays cyclic the way I demonstrated.

I'm referring not to primes, but to compound numbers.

> > Since you have said that Maqam music has "key", I seek
> > only the targets needed in a single key, not those
> > needed over the course of an entire piece if it modulates.
> >
> > I have provided the ones you need. Those and their
> > transpositions a fourth and fifth above.
>
> Can you list them once more for me, just the ratios or the
> cents (whichever are primary), since otherwise I am bound
> to get confused.
>
> This is still very much incomplete in my opinion:

Excellent!!!! I will study this in depth and get back to you.

> As for the transpositions... are these needed only when
> the key-center of the Maqam changes, or are they part of
> the tonic universe?
>
> The key-center frequency of a Maqam is associated with
> Ahenk/Diapason. A Kemancha playing the Rast Maqam's primary
> scale's primary mode in Sipurde Ahenk sounds the natural
> diatonic gamut from C4 to C5. The equivalent Ney plays an
> octave higher, the Tanbur, without changing its tuning,
> an octave lower.

Ok.

> If we were to reserve the term transposition for Ahenk
> changes, we would be hard-pressed to use the term
> modulation to mean:
>
> 1. Diatonical modulations within a Maqam (octave species)
> 2. Chromatic (12 tone via 79?) modulations within a
> Maqam (unequal transpositions)
>
> Both are part of the tonic universe of the Maqamat.

Ah...

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Krister Johnson <aaron@a...> wrote:
>
> On Friday 04 November 2005 1:58 am, monz wrote:
>
> > Gene, i like a *lot* of your compositions, and hope that
> > you keep composing ... hopefully creating some in Tonescape.
>
> I think Gene has a very original and creative mind, and I want to
encourage
> him to create more music. I know I had some comments about the
overall form
> of some works that didn't do it for me, at least once, but I hope I
conveyed
> an encouraging spirit, not the message that he ought to stop composing.

Thanks, Aaron. No, you were not discouraging.

> BTW, Gene, have you ever thought of working with Markov chains, like
David
> Cope does?

Cope's work is fascinating, and he does describe it as involving
Markov chains, but in effect what he does is to put a composer in a
blender and press puree, and then pour the results out. The idea is
that not-garbage in will lead to not-garbage out, and the results are
intriguing.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Carl Lumma" <clumma@yahoo.com>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 16 Kas�m 2005 �ar�amba 7:42
Subject: Fw: [tuning] Re: Keys and 79 MOS 159-tET

> >
> > Temperament is primary over rational interpretation in my
> > opinion.
>
> I didn't mean temperament per se... usually field measurements
> of musicians are in cents. I'm trying to determine where your
> numbers are coming from.
>

They are all part of a grand systematization which is proven to work with
the special Qanun I have in my possession. I have shown it to musicians in
the field, and they simply adore it. You must realize that such a
temperament has not been attempted before - to my knowledge - and the
results are simply fantastic. I have a presentation in a few days where I
shall demonstrate directly how these numbers work and why they are important
to Maqam Music performance.

> >
> > Why would 8:10:12:15 be a non-consonant chord in a diatonic
> > music?
>
> Sorry, I should have said "common practice" music. Only
> triads are considered onsonances in this form.
>

Well, you realize of course that Maqam Music, although sharing certain
kinship with your "common practice music", has rules of its own which lead
to diverse consonances. But in the example above, 15/8 is not a consonance
in this genre as far as I know. As I said previously, one should limit the
scope of consonant intervals within the sphere of the `diatessaron`, or
namely, the fourth.

> > > Now I don't know if Maqam music employs the concept of
> > > primary consonances (does it?) or even primary
> > > intervals (does it?)....
> > >
> > > I have developed a firm faith during my stay in the tuning
> > >list that higher primes and primary consonances do matter. At
> > >least they should be the target intervals in a temperament,
> > >which nevertheless stays cyclic the way I demonstrated.
> >
> > I'm referring not to primes, but to compound numbers.
> >
> > Compound numbers as in?
>
> 25 is a compound number. 5 is a prime.
>
> -Carl
>

Ah. So, what is the question if I might ask once again?

Cordially,
Ozan

> > > Why would 8:10:12:15 be a non-consonant chord in a diatonic
> > > music?
> >
> > Sorry, I should have said "common practice" music. Only
> > triads are considered onsonances in this form.
>
> Well, you realize of course that Maqam Music, although sharing
> certain kinship with your "common practice music", has rules
> of its own which lead to diverse consonances.

I'm curious about these.

> As I said previously, one should limit the scope of consonant
> intervals within the sphere of the `diatessaron`, or namely,
> the fourth.

Why?

> > 25 is a compound number. 5 is a prime.
>
> Ah. So, what is the question if I might ask once again?

If you told me 25:24 was in Rast, I'd ask if this was not
a minor third below 5:4, and thus not a *primary* ingredient
of Rast. ......

-Carl

Sorry for the late reply Carl,

----- Original Message -----
From: "Carl Lumma" <clumma@yahoo.com>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 16 Kas�m 2005 �ar�amba 23:53
Subject: [tuning] Re: Keys and 79 MOS 159-tET

> > > > Why would 8:10:12:15 be a non-consonant chord in a diatonic
> > > > music?
> > >
> > > Sorry, I should have said "common practice" music. Only
> > > triads are considered onsonances in this form.
> >
> > Well, you realize of course that Maqam Music, although sharing
> > certain kinship with your "common practice music", has rules
> > of its own which lead to diverse consonances.
>
> I'm curious about these.
>

You should shop for some Maqam Music Cds then and listen to some Classical
performances. If you followed our discussions with Yahya, then you shall
remember what to look for.

> > As I said previously, one should limit the scope of consonant
> > intervals within the sphere of the `diatessaron`, or namely,
> > the fourth.
>
> Why?
>

Well, because all the roots of consonant intervals reside within the
tetrachord, except 3:2.

> > > 25 is a compound number. 5 is a prime.
> >
> > Ah. So, what is the question if I might ask once again?
>
> If you told me 25:24 was in Rast, I'd ask if this was not
> a minor third below 5:4, and thus not a *primary* ingredient
> of Rast. ......
>

It is not a primary ingredient of Rast AFAIK.

> -Carl
>
>
>

Cordially,
Ozan

> You should shop for some Maqam Music Cds

I have several!

> > > As I said previously, one should limit the scope of consonant
> > > intervals within the sphere of the `diatessaron`, or namely,
> > > the fourth.
> >
> > Why?
>
> Well, because all the roots of consonant intervals reside within
> the tetrachord, except 3:2.

I don't want roots, I want the intervals themselves. With
octave equivalence you can get any interval to be less than
600 cents. But I'm even sure if I should be assuming that.

> > > > 25 is a compound number. 5 is a prime.
> > >
> > > Ah. So, what is the question if I might ask once again?
> >
> > If you told me 25:24 was in Rast, I'd ask if this was not
> > a minor third below 5:4, and thus not a *primary* ingredient
> > of Rast. ......
>
> It is not a primary ingredient of Rast AFAIK.

This was just an example.

-Carl

----- Original Message -----
From: "Carl Lumma" <clumma@yahoo.com>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 17 Kas�m 2005 Per�embe 20:20
Subject: [tuning] Re: Keys and 79 MOS 159-tET

> > You should shop for some Maqam Music Cds
>
> I have several!
>

Excellent. Then you should listen vigilantly to discern the minute details
of consonances.

> > > > As I said previously, one should limit the scope of consonant
> > > > intervals within the sphere of the `diatessaron`, or namely,
> > > > the fourth.
> > >
> > > Why?
> >
> > Well, because all the roots of consonant intervals reside within
> > the tetrachord, except 3:2.
>
> I don't want roots, I want the intervals themselves. With
> octave equivalence you can get any interval to be less than
> 600 cents. But I'm even sure if I should be assuming that.
>

I have given you the intervals previously. All you have to do is add to the
list the fourth and fifth counterparts of these.

> > > > > 25 is a compound number. 5 is a prime.
> > > >
> > > > Ah. So, what is the question if I might ask once again?
> > >
> > > If you told me 25:24 was in Rast, I'd ask if this was not
> > > a minor third below 5:4, and thus not a *primary* ingredient
> > > of Rast. ......
> >
> > It is not a primary ingredient of Rast AFAIK.
>
> This was just an example.
>

That is why I answered thus, for it was just one example.

> -Carl
>
>
>
>
>

Cordially,
Ozan