12-EQ

----- Original Message -----
From: Aaron Krister Johnson
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com ; metatuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 29 Ekim 2005 Cumartesi 8:19
Subject: this *%&$@#-up world of ours (was Re: [tuning] The Holy Quran and 12-ET)

>
> Not 12-ET, but the fascists whose agenda includes it.

I don't think most (or even any) composers have a 'pro-12' agenda. They are
simply ignorant of or disinterested in alternatives!

Because of the fascist policy that steers clear of any alternatives. We have seen this happen in Turkey during 1920s and 30s.

>
>
> Huh? It's not popularity we condemn, it is intolerance to the rest of the
> systems.

then we agree! let's practice our preaching and not condemn 12-equal, either.

Who condemnds 12-equal? I merely implied that musicians who cannot differentiate between 5/4 and 400 cents should be sent immediately to a music school to receive the ear-training they lack. It's not the best system available anyway.

> You apparently have been misinformed by Fox News and brainwashed by
> supremacist USA propaganda (the greatest country in the world!).

why a FOX junky? me? I'm a Daily Show with Jon Stewart junky if anything. I
watch 'the enemy' only occasionally.

SNIPPED THE LOT

How many times do I have to tell you that I am not allowed by principle to discuss religion and politics with self-proclaimed disbelievers? The nerve... especially on the tuning list!

Cordially,
Ozan

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@s...> wrote:

> "Who condemnds 12-equal? I merely implied that musicians who cannot
differentiate between 5/4 and 400 cents should be sent immediately to a
music school to receive the ear-training they lack. It's not the best
system available anyway."
>

I'm fairly certain that the problem --if there is one-- is that
(western?) musicians and listeners simply prefer 400 cents to 5/4.
Whether that's a matter of "brainwashing" is definitely a concern, but
I've found much more conscious (!) intractability than I expected.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "ambassadorbob" <ambassadorbob@y...> wrote:

> I'm fairly certain that the problem --if there is one-- is that
> (western?) musicians and listeners simply prefer 400 cents to 5/4.
> Whether that's a matter of "brainwashing" is definitely a concern, but
> I've found much more conscious (!) intractability than I expected.

My experiments with retuning pieces from 12et to meantone suggests to
me that many, and probably most, people prefer meantone in a head to
head. It also suggests people find the difference rather subtle,
whereas tuning list folks are likely to think it is glaring.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:
>
> My experiments with retuning pieces from 12et to meantone suggests to
> me that many, and probably most, people prefer meantone in a head to
> head. It also suggests people find the difference rather subtle,
> whereas tuning list folks are likely to think it is glaring.

I have no idea about the former statement (though I have no reason to
doubt it) but I think the latter point is an extremely good one, Gene.
This is especially important if you are one of those that is
presenting this kind of music to a 'lay' audience, at least in terms
of one's expectations.

Cheers,
Jon

I find 392 cents to be much more palatable than 400 cents. Then again, I'm probably influenced by the techno-babble around these parts.

----- Original Message -----
From: ambassadorbob
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 29 Ekim 2005 Cumartesi 21:52
Subject: [tuning] Re: 12-EQ

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@s...> wrote:

> "Who condemnds 12-equal? I merely implied that musicians who cannot
differentiate between 5/4 and 400 cents should be sent immediately to a
music school to receive the ear-training they lack. It's not the best
system available anyway."
>

I'm fairly certain that the problem --if there is one-- is that
(western?) musicians and listeners simply prefer 400 cents to 5/4.
Whether that's a matter of "brainwashing" is definitely a concern, but
I've found much more conscious (!) intractability than I expected.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@s...> wrote:
>
> I find 392 cents to be much more palatable than 400 cents. Then
again, I'm probably influenced by the techno-babble around these
parts.
>

I like the just intervals, myself, a lot (!). I've worked with some
(admittedly) amateur classical musicians who definitely don't. They
hear them as 'false'. And I had top-notch guitar luthier refuse to
make a just fretting for me, because he said a.) it was too much
trouble for him at the time, and b.) he didn't like the sound of it.
He was at a level of skill and discernment that I had to respect his
opinion, in any case.

I suspect (more precisely?) that a pop audience probably is so used
to organ and synth and guitar thirds, etc., that they find the true
12-equal most comfortable. And most pianos you find around are
pretty atrocious, too, so that's going to be a factor, I think.

But I would actually tend to agree with Gene, too, that even a
slightly more cultivated tonal music listener probably likes meantone
or one of the better well-temperaments pretty consistently.
Unfortunately for Ozan, I don't foresee our conservatories making
much of an issue of it anytime soon.

Pete

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "ambassadorbob" <ambassadorbob@y...>
wrote:

Oops, I meant "[u]nfortunately for Ozan (grin ;-)", etc.

P

The Yarman family aims to establish a new liberal university in Istanbul in the forseeable future, wherewith I wish to found a much required music faculty which would deal not only with 12-eq, but other genres and microtonal theories at hand. Afterall, people should be music literate in this age, and it should be a prerequisite for graduation. Hang in there!

Cordially,
Ozan

----- Original Message -----
From: ambassadorbob
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 30 Ekim 2005 Pazar 6:23
Subject: [tuning] Re: 12-EQ

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@s...> wrote:
>
> I find 392 cents to be much more palatable than 400 cents. Then
again, I'm probably influenced by the techno-babble around these
parts.
>

I like the just intervals, myself, a lot (!). I've worked with some
(admittedly) amateur classical musicians who definitely don't. They
hear them as 'false'. And I had top-notch guitar luthier refuse to
make a just fretting for me, because he said a.) it was too much
trouble for him at the time, and b.) he didn't like the sound of it.
He was at a level of skill and discernment that I had to respect his
opinion, in any case.

I suspect (more precisely?) that a pop audience probably is so used
to organ and synth and guitar thirds, etc., that they find the true
12-equal most comfortable. And most pianos you find around are
pretty atrocious, too, so that's going to be a factor, I think.

But I would actually tend to agree with Gene, too, that even a
slightly more cultivated tonal music listener probably likes meantone
or one of the better well-temperaments pretty consistently.
Unfortunately for Ozan, I don't foresee our conservatories making
much of an issue of it anytime soon.

Pete

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@s...> wrote:

That's great!

You may be looking at my application for a job, one of these days!

Salud,

Pete
>
> The Yarman family aims to establish a new liberal university in
Istanbul in the forseeable future, wherewith I wish to found a much
required music faculty which would deal not only with 12-eq, but
other genres and microtonal theories at hand. Afterall, people should
be music literate in this age, and it should be a prerequisite for
graduation. Hang in there!
>
> Cordially,
> Ozan
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: ambassadorbob
> To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: 30 Ekim 2005 Pazar 6:23
> Subject: [tuning] Re: 12-EQ
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@s...>
wrote:
> >
> > I find 392 cents to be much more palatable than 400 cents. Then
> again, I'm probably influenced by the techno-babble around these
> parts.
> >
>
> I like the just intervals, myself, a lot (!). I've worked with
some
> (admittedly) amateur classical musicians who definitely don't.
They
> hear them as 'false'. And I had top-notch guitar luthier refuse
to
> make a just fretting for me, because he said a.) it was too much
> trouble for him at the time, and b.) he didn't like the sound of
it.
> He was at a level of skill and discernment that I had to respect
his
> opinion, in any case.
>
> I suspect (more precisely?) that a pop audience probably is so
used
> to organ and synth and guitar thirds, etc., that they find the
true
> 12-equal most comfortable. And most pianos you find around are
> pretty atrocious, too, so that's going to be a factor, I think.
>
> But I would actually tend to agree with Gene, too, that even a
> slightly more cultivated tonal music listener probably likes
meantone
> or one of the better well-temperaments pretty consistently.
> Unfortunately for Ozan, I don't foresee our conservatories making
> much of an issue of it anytime soon.
>
> Pete
>

Indeed!
----- Original Message -----
From: ambassadorbob
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 30 Ekim 2005 Pazar 21:12
Subject: [tuning] Re: 12-EQ

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@s...> wrote:

That's great!

You may be looking at my application for a job, one of these days!

Salud,

Pete
>
> The Yarman family aims to establish a new liberal university in
Istanbul in the forseeable future, wherewith I wish to found a much
required music faculty which would deal not only with 12-eq, but
other genres and microtonal theories at hand. Afterall, people should
be music literate in this age, and it should be a prerequisite for
graduation. Hang in there!
>
> Cordially,
> Ozan