Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning RE: to ozan:[tuning] otonal and utonal

Dear ozan

Salam

As u told---What do you make of my claim that these three brothers born under the same roof are all tonal genres? And that Dastgahs/Maqams are keys rather than modes? May be but I may say that we have modal movements in tonal line. We have different modes in shur due to changes of not-e-shahed :

-dashtee

- bayat-e-tork

-afshari

-abou-ata

U told :--- Have you examined my 79 MOS 159-tET? I do believe that you can express all the tastes of Persian Art Music with this system.

Indeed it can because all degrees of it are parts of my intervallic spectrum .

Unfortunately I don't know how to make a mos structure in a system , may u tell me how?

But some question :

- For correlating of the 2 systems with 159-edo we have degree 138 as 1041.509 cents :

0: 1/1 0.000 unison, perfect prime

1: 27/25 133.238 large limma, BP small semitone

2: 243/200 337.148 acute minor third

3: 4/3 498.045 perfect fourth

4: 36/25 631.283 classic diminished fifth

5: 81/50 835.193 acute minor sixth

6: 729/400 1039.103 acute minor seventh

7: 2/1 1200.000 octave

but in your proposed structure we have 6: 1033.985 cents A# Bb ?why?

- There are some intervallic-deviations in those 2 scales with your 79-mos .... What is the limit of discrimination in your system ?

thanks

________________________________

From: tuning@yahoogroups.com [mailto:tuning@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ozan Yarman
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 3:27 AM
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [tuning] otonal and utonal

Dear brother in Islam,

----- Original Message -----

From: Mohajeri Shahin <mailto:shahinm@kayson-ir.com>

To: tuning@yahoogroups.com

Sent: 18 Ekim 2005 Salı 7:11

Subject: RE: [tuning] otonal and utonal

Dear ozan

Indeed , many things are the same , but the sense of music is specific , in turkish , arabic an d persian like three brothers borned in a house.

Indeed!

all of us have many common theorethical concepts because of theories received from farabi,ibn sina,ormavi,maraghi ,.....

We can trace the common cultural heritage as near as the 18th century. Have you heard of Nayi Uthman Dede and Dmitri Kantemir?

but the framework of intervallic structure mainly in structural intervals of modes, modal movement ,..... are specific.

What do you make of my claim that these three brothers born under the same roof are all tonal genres? And that Dastgahs/Maqams are keys rather than modes?

You know,scales and tetrachord may be the same but the mixture of tetrachord and the way you think musically due to the rules of modes different.may be we two play in mokhalif but our taste of segah due to tuning of instrument , phrasing , ......different.

Misinterpretation, or outright denial of facts contained in historic treatises must be the cause of certain grotesque mistunings in my opinion. On the other hand, I concur that different tastes have evolved in Persia, Turkey and other Middle Eastern countries throughout the past millenium.

I have a book in farsi by the late maestro morteza han'naneh , a greate theorician and composer, working on the root of dastgah , he proposed that shur is the same as yegah , and rast is another root of persian music.according to old documents from maraghi and ..... melodic and rhythmic music of iran were bwsed on maqam concept.

It is interesting how there occured this reactionary movement both in Turkey and Iran against the original Maqam so much so that we almost entirely reverted back to the tetrachordal system of Ancient Greek and Arab theoreticians.

like the other parts of islamic culture but unfortunately we don't know the time of change to dastgah and loosing the rhythmic maqams.but as I mentioned before and you told we can trace the footprint of maqams from names from common structures and intonations.

The living relic, so to speak. It is a wonder how it survived all that mutilation in the hands of nationalists.

We cant give exact scale-formula for each things in iranian music and also middle east and may be all musics based on personal approach, because of intervallic spectrum . I'm working on this item to see what are the maximum and minimum limits of an interval to save the taste of mode , indeed in degrees of good and bad . I don't mean that scales are bad or good but modal taste for example can be qualified .

Have you examined my 79 MOS 159-tET? I do believe that you can express all the tastes of Persian Art Music with this system.

These sacles are near to theory of dr.barkeshli who told for example quarter-tones in persiam music are just minor intervals + sy. Comma , but they are only two intervals in intervallic spectrum:

0: 1/1 0.000 unison, perfect prime

1: 27/25 133.238 large limma, BP small semitone

2: 243/200 337.148 acute minor third

3: 4/3 498.045 perfect fourth

4: 36/25 631.283 classic diminished fifth

5: 81/50 835.193 acute minor sixth

6: 729/400 1039.103 acute minor seventh

7: 2/1 1200.000 octave

These would be degrees 0, 9, 22, 33, 42, 55, 68 and 79 of 79 MOS 159-tET.

0: 1/1 C Dbb unison, perfect prime
1: 135.830 cents C# Db
2: 332.030 cents D# Eb
3: 498.045 cents F Gbb
4: 633.875 cents F# Gb
5: 837.785 cents G# Ab
6: 1033.985 cents A# Bb
7: 1200.000 cents C Dbb

0: 1/1 0.000 unison, perfect prime

1: 27/25 133.238 large limma, BP small semitone

2: 32/27 294.135 Pythagorean minor third

3: 4/3 498.045 perfect fourth

4: 3/2 701.955 perfect fifth

5: 128/81 792.180 Pythagorean minor sixth

6: 16/9 996.090 Pythagorean minor seventh

7: 2/1 1200.000 octave

These would be degrees 0, 9, 20, 33, 46, 52, 66 and 79 of 79 MOS 159-tET.

0: 1/1 C Dbb unison, perfect prime
1: 135.830 cents C# Db
2: 301.845 cents D# Eb
3: 498.045 cents F Gbb
4: 701.955 cents G Abb
5: 792.509 cents G# Ab
6: 1003.800 cents A# Bb
7: 1200.000 cents C Dbb

Cordially,

Ozan

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🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@superonline.com>

Dear brother, sorry for my late reply.

Yes, it is not detrimental to tonality in Maqam Music to consider modal movements along a tone-center as you said. However, modes are edvar (pl. of devir, or cycle as in octave species from a gamut), Maqams are not Edvar, hence modality is a lacking term for the last 300 years of musical development in the Orient in my opinion.

Here is 79 MOS 159-tET again with Maqam Music diatonical perde names:

Notation is SCALA E79
|
0: 1/1 C RAST (Do=261 Hz, Sipurde Ahenk/double frequencies for Ney)
1: 15.092 cents C/
2: 30.185 cents C//
3: 45.277 cents C^ Db(
4: 60.369 cents C) Dbv
5: 75.461 cents C#\ Db\\
6: 90.554 cents C# Db\
7: 105.646 cents C#/ Db
8: 120.738 cents C#// Db/
9: 135.830 cents C#^ D(
10: 150.923 cents C#) Dv
11: 166.015 cents D\\
12: 181.107 cents D\
13: 196.200 cents D DUGAH
14: 211.292 cents D/ dugah again
15: 226.384 cents D//
16: 241.476 cents D^ Eb(
17: 256.569 cents D) Ebv
18: 271.661 cents D#\ Eb\\
19: 286.753 cents D# Eb\
20: 301.845 cents D#/ Eb
21: 316.938 cents D#// Eb/
22: 332.030 cents D#^ E(
23: 347.122 cents D#) Ev
24: 362.215 cents E\\
25: 377.307 cents E\ segah/ussaq down from here
26: 392.399 cents E SEGAH
27: 407.491 cents E/ Fb buselik
28: 422.584 cents E// Fb/ nishabur?
29: 437.676 cents E^ F(
30: 452.768 cents E) Fv
31: 467.860 cents E#\ F\\
32: 482.953 cents E# F\
33: 498.045 cents F CHARGAH
34: 513.137 cents F/
35: 528.230 cents F//
36: 543.322 cents F^ Gb(
37: 558.414 cents F) Gbv
38: 573.506 cents F#\ Gb\\
39: 588.599 cents F# Gb\
40: 603.691 cents F#/ Gb
41: 618.783 cents F#// Gb/
42: 633.875 cents F#^ G(
43: 648.968 cents F#) Gv
44: 664.060 cents G\\
45: 679.152 cents G\
46: 701.955 cents G NEVA (your PENCHGAH?)
47: 717.047 cents G/
48: 732.140 cents G//
49: 747.232 cents G^ Ab(
50: 762.324 cents G) Abv
51: 777.416 cents G#\ Ab\\
52: 792.509 cents G# Ab\
53: 807.601 cents G#/ Ab
54: 822.693 cents G#// Ab/
55: 837.785 cents G#^ A(
56: 852.878 cents G#) Av
57: 867.970 cents A\\ hisar (in Huzzam Maqam)
58: 883.062 cents A\ hisarek (Hisar in Segah Maqam)
59: 898.155 cents A HUSEYNI
60: 913.247 cents A/ huseyni once more
61: 928.339 cents A//
62: 943.431 cents A^ Bb(
63: 958.524 cents A) Bbv
64: 973.616 cents A#\ Bb\\
65: 988.708 cents A# Bb\
66: 1003.800 cents A#/ Bb
67: 1018.893 cents A#// Bb/
68: 1033.985 cents A#^ B(
69: 1049.077 cents A#) Bv
70: 1064.170 cents B\\
71: 1079.262 cents B\
72: 1094.354 cents B EWDJ
73: 1109.446 cents B/ Cb mahur
74: 1124.539 cents B// Cb/ mahurek?
75: 1139.631 cents B^ C(
76: 1154.723 cents B) Cv
77: 1169.815 cents B#\ C\\
78: 1184.908 cents B# C\
79: 1200.000 cents C GERDANIYE

Maybe you can identify some Dastgahs in this system?

I found 79 MOS 159-tET in this way:

1. Divide the pure fourth (4/3) into 33 equal parts. This gives you a comma of ~15.1 cents.

2. Stack up 79 of these until you get as close to the octave as possible (~1192.3 cents)

3. Complete the octave to 1200 cents, and find the remainder comma as ~22.8 cents.

4. Move this comma between steps 45-46 to acquire a pure fifth (3/2).

Voila! You have found a system which is practically 79-tone moment of symmetry out of 159-edo. This means that you have two types of basic intervals in the temperament. Because the resolution is dense, you may play all Maqams on all degrees with acceptable error (maximum 7-8 cents).

As to your question, 79 MOS 159-tET does not contain the 138th degree of 159-edo. Hence one must use the next best thing, which is 1034 cents, or else move the remainder comma after degree 69, which would mean that we sacrifice other things.

Cordially,
Ozan

----- Original Message -----
From: Mohajeri Shahin
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 24 Ekim 2005 Pazartesi 7:46
Subject: RE: to ozan:[tuning] otonal and utonal

Dear ozan

Salam

-dashtee

- bayat-e-tork

-afshari

-abou-ata

U told :--- Have you examined my 79 MOS 159-tET? I do believe that you can express all the tastes of Persian Art Music with this system.

Indeed it can because all degrees of it are parts of my intervallic spectrum .

Unfortunately I don't know how to make a mos structure in a system , may u tell me how?

But some question :

- For correlating of the 2 systems with 159-edo we have degree 138 as 1041.509 cents :

0: 1/1 0.000 unison, perfect prime

1: 27/25 133.238 large limma, BP small semitone

2: 243/200 337.148 acute minor third

3: 4/3 498.045 perfect fourth

4: 36/25 631.283 classic diminished fifth

5: 81/50 835.193 acute minor sixth

6: 729/400 1039.103 acute minor seventh

7: 2/1 1200.000 octave

but in your proposed structure we have 6: 1033.985 cents A# Bb ?why?

- There are some intervallic-deviations in those 2 scales with your 79-mos …. What is the limit of discrimination in your system ?

thanks

🔗Carl Lumma <clumma@yahoo.com>

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@superonline.com>

Dear Carl, a full list would have to wait for my doctorate dissertation as I am accustomed to say. Still, here is list of common intervals which I deem important:

79 MOS 159-tET again with Maqam Music diatonical perde names:

Notation is SCALA E79
|
0: 1/1 C RAST 1/1
1: 15.092 cents C/
2: 30.185 cents C//
3: 45.277 cents C^ Db(
4: 60.369 cents C) Dbv
5: 75.461 cents C#\ Db\\ 25/24 (24/23)
6: 90.554 cents C# Db\ 20/19 (256/243)
7: 105.646 cents C#/ Db 16/15
8: 120.738 cents C#// Db/ 15/14
9: 135.830 cents C#^ D( 14/13 and 13/12 (27/25)
10: 150.923 cents C#) Dv 12/11
11: 166.015 cents D\\ 11/10
12: 181.107 cents D\ 10/9
13: 196.200 cents D DUGAH 9/8
14: 211.292 cents D/ dugah again 9/8
15: 226.384 cents D//
16: 241.476 cents D^ Eb(
17: 256.569 cents D) Ebv
18: 271.661 cents D#\ Eb\\
19: 286.753 cents D# Eb\
20: 301.845 cents D#/ Eb 81/68 (32/27)
21: 316.938 cents D#// Eb/ 6/5
22: 332.030 cents D#^ E( 17/14
23: 347.122 cents D#) Ev 11/9
24: 362.215 cents E\\ 16/13 (21/17)
25: 377.307 cents E\ segah/ussaq down from here 36/29 (31/25)
26: 392.399 cents E SEGAH 5/4
27: 407.491 cents E/ Fb buselik 81/64
28: 422.584 cents E// Fb/ nishabur? 14/11 (51/40 and 23/18)
29: 437.676 cents E^ F(
30: 452.768 cents E) Fv
31: 467.860 cents E#\ F\\
32: 482.953 cents E# F\
33: 498.045 cents F CHARGAH 4/3
34: 513.137 cents F/
35: 528.230 cents F//
36: 543.322 cents F^ Gb(
37: 558.414 cents F) Gbv
38: 573.506 cents F#\ Gb\\
39: 588.599 cents F# Gb\
40: 603.691 cents F#/ Gb
41: 618.783 cents F#// Gb/
42: 633.875 cents F#^ G(
43: 648.968 cents F#) Gv
44: 664.060 cents G\\
45: 679.152 cents G\
46: 701.955 cents G NEVA (your PENCHGAH?) 3/2
47: 717.047 cents G/
48: 732.140 cents G//
49: 747.232 cents G^ Ab(
50: 762.324 cents G) Abv
51: 777.416 cents G#\ Ab\\
52: 792.509 cents G# Ab\
53: 807.601 cents G#/ Ab
54: 822.693 cents G#// Ab/
55: 837.785 cents G#^ A(
56: 852.878 cents G#) Av
57: 867.970 cents A\\ hisar (in Huzzam Maqam) 48/29 (28/17)
58: 883.062 cents A\ hisarek (Hisar in Segah Maqam) 5/3 specifically
59: 898.155 cents A HUSEYNI 5/3 and 27/16
60: 913.247 cents A/ huseyni once more 27/16 specifically (17/10)
61: 928.339 cents A//
62: 943.431 cents A^ Bb(
63: 958.524 cents A) Bbv
64: 973.616 cents A#\ Bb\\
65: 988.708 cents A# Bb\
66: 1003.800 cents A#/ Bb
67: 1018.893 cents A#// Bb/
68: 1033.985 cents A#^ B(
69: 1049.077 cents A#) Bv
70: 1064.170 cents B\\
71: 1079.262 cents B\
72: 1094.354 cents B EWDJ 15/8
73: 1109.446 cents B/ Cb mahur 243/128
74: 1124.539 cents B// Cb/ mahurek? 21/11
75: 1139.631 cents B^ C(
76: 1154.723 cents B) Cv
77: 1169.815 cents B#\ C\\
78: 1184.908 cents B# C\
79: 1200.000 cents C GERDANIYE 2/1
----- Original Message -----
From: Carl Lumma
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 29 Ekim 2005 Cumartesi 0:53
Subject: Re: to ozan:[tuning] otonal and utonal

> I found 79 MOS 159-tET in this way:
>
> 1. Divide the pure fourth (4/3) into 33 equal parts. This gives
> you a comma of ~15.1 cents.
>
> 2. Stack up 79 of these until you get as close to the octave as
> possible (~1192.3 cents)
>
> 3. Complete the octave to 1200 cents, and find the remainder
> comma as ~22.8 cents.
>
> 4. Move this comma between steps 45-46 to acquire a pure fifth
> (3/2).
>
> Voila! You have found a system which is practically 79-tone
> moment of symmetry out of 159-edo. This means that you have two
> types of basic intervals in the temperament. Because the
> resolution is dense, you may play all Maqams on all degrees with
> acceptable error (maximum 7-8 cents).

Dear Ozan,

Thanks for this. It is the most concise description of your
approach I've seen, and it's made me think of what will hopefully
be the most concise question I've yet asked you:

Can you list the basic, most important intervals required in
any given key so that one may perform Maqam music? Not
including approximations, mind you... what are the true
desired targets?

Thanks,

-Carl

RE: to ozan:[tuning] otonal and utonal

🔗Mohajeri Shahin <shahinm@kayson-ir.com>

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@superonline.com>

🔗Carl Lumma <clumma@yahoo.com>

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@superonline.com>

🔗Carl Lumma <clumma@yahoo.com>