Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning real or virtual instruments

-- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:
>
> here is a magazine that seems to take the similar view to Cris
Forster in just the name and identity of their subject.
>
>
> Virtual Instruments magazine - the world of softsynths and samplers
> www.Virtualinstrumentsmag.com
>
> --
> Kraig Grady
> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
> The Wandering Medicine Show
> KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles
>

Do you swear to speak the virtual truth,
the whole virtual truth,
and nothing but the virtual truth

🔗klaus schmirler <KSchmir@online.de>

Cris Forster wrote:
> -- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:
>
>>here is a magazine that seems to take the similar view to Cris
>
> Forster in just the name and identity of their subject.
>
>>
>>Virtual Instruments magazine - the world of softsynths and samplers
>>www.Virtualinstrumentsmag.com
>>
>>--
>>Kraig Grady
>>North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
>>The Wandering Medicine Show
>>KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles
>>
>
>
> Do you swear to speak the virtual truth,
> the whole virtual truth,
> and nothing but the virtual truth…

Subtitle in a German computer mag: post-material instruments.

They are all instruments.

klaus

🔗Cris Forster <cris.forster@comcast.net>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, klaus schmirler <KSchmir@o...> wrote:
>
> Cris Forster wrote:
> > -- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...>
wrote:
> >
> >>here is a magazine that seems to take the similar view to Cris
> >
> > Forster in just the name and identity of their subject.
> >
> >>
> >>Virtual Instruments magazine - the world of softsynths and
samplers
> >>www.Virtualinstrumentsmag.com
> >>
> >>--
> >>Kraig Grady
> >>North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
<http://anaphoria.com/>
> >>The Wandering Medicine Show
> >>KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los
Angeles
> >>
> >
> >
> > Do you swear to speak the virtual truth,
> > the whole virtual truth,
> > and nothing but the virtual truth
>
> Subtitle in a German computer mag: post-material instruments.
>
> They are all instruments.
>
> klaus
>

Exactly right!

Obviously a reference to the fact that the sound-producing
source of "post-material instruments" no longer occurs
in three-dimensional space.

I can't wait until we have
"post-material dances,"
"post-material paintings,"
"post-material sculptures,"
etc.

Cris

🔗klaus schmirler <KSchmir@online.de>

Cris Forster wrote:

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, klaus schmirler <KSchmir@o...> wrote:

>>Subtitle in a German computer mag: post-material instruments.
>>
>>They are all instruments.
>>
>>klaus
>>
> > > Exactly right!
> > Obviously a reference to the fact that the sound-producing
> source of "post-material instruments" no longer occurs
> in three-dimensional space.
> > I can't wait until we have
> "post-material dances,"
> "post-material paintings,"
> "post-material sculptures,"
> etc.

Don't wait, have a look at Nam June Paik's work and many things that came after. Postmaterial art housed in a tv box.

klaus

🔗Aaron Krister Johnson <aaron@akjmusic.com>

On Tuesday 18 October 2005 9:46 pm, Cris Forster wrote:

> > > Do you swear to speak the virtual truth,
> > > the whole virtual truth,
> > > and nothing but the virtual truth
> >
> > Subtitle in a German computer mag: post-material instruments.
> >
> > They are all instruments.
> >
> > klaus
>
> Exactly right!
>
> Obviously a reference to the fact that the sound-producing
> source of "post-material instruments" no longer occurs
> in three-dimensional space.
>
> I can't wait until we have
> "post-material dances,"
> "post-material paintings,"
> "post-material sculptures,"
> etc.

Ok, Cris, we get it: you wish to invalid all forms of electronic music.
Electronic music sucks because the instruments are not 3-dimensional (a
half-truth BTW, since my computer is a 4-dimensional object, but whatever).
And, according to you, no TRUE ART can be done in EM.

In the meantime, I'm going to continue to use electronic means when and where
I want to, so you haven't converted me.

Regards,
Aaron.

🔗Cris Forster <cris.forster@comcast.net>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Krister Johnson <aaron@a...>
wrote:
>
> On Tuesday 18 October 2005 9:46 pm, Cris Forster wrote:
>
> > > > Do you swear to speak the virtual truth,
> > > > the whole virtual truth,
> > > > and nothing but the virtual truth
> > >
> > > Subtitle in a German computer mag: post-material instruments.
> > >
> > > They are all instruments.
> > >
> > > klaus
> >
> > Exactly right!
> >
> > Obviously a reference to the fact that the sound-producing
> > source of "post-material instruments" no longer occurs
> > in three-dimensional space.
> >
> > I can't wait until we have
> > "post-material dances,"
> > "post-material paintings,"
> > "post-material sculptures,"
> > etc.
>
> Ok, Cris, we get it: you wish to invalid all forms of electronic
music.
> Electronic music sucks because the instruments are not 3-
dimensional (a
> half-truth BTW, since my computer is a 4-dimensional object, but
whatever).
> And, according to you, no TRUE ART can be done in EM.
>
> In the meantime, I'm going to continue to use electronic means
when and where
> I want to, so you haven't converted me.
>
> Regards,
> Aaron.
>

In case you haven't noticed, I live in a democracy where minority
opinions are not necessarily irrelevant or belligerent opinions.

I don't know what "objects" are not four-dimensional.

Sincerely,

Cris

🔗Carl Lumma <clumma@yahoo.com>

> Ok, Cris, we get it: you wish to invalid all forms of electronic
> music. Electronic music sucks because the instruments are not
> 3-dimensional (a half-truth BTW, since my computer is a
> 4-dimensional object, but whatever). And, according to you,
> no TRUE ART can be done in EM.
>
> In the meantime, I'm going to continue to use electronic means
> when and where I want to, so you haven't converted me.

My vote is for moderators to censor anyone who makes 10 short,
pithy posts in a row about how electronic music isn't valid.
That's not what we're here to discuss. The on-topic traffic
on the list is too high for most readers as it is.

-Carl

🔗Cris Forster <cris.forster@comcast.net>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, klaus schmirler <KSchmir@o...> wrote:
>
> Cris Forster wrote:
>
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, klaus schmirler <KSchmir@o...>
wrote:
>
> >>Subtitle in a German computer mag: post-material instruments.
> >>
> >>They are all instruments.
> >>
> >>klaus
> >>
> >
> >
> > Exactly right!
> >
> > Obviously a reference to the fact that the sound-producing
> > source of "post-material instruments" no longer occurs
> > in three-dimensional space.
> >
> > I can't wait until we have
> > "post-material dances,"
> > "post-material paintings,"
> > "post-material sculptures,"
> > etc.
>
> Don't wait, have a look at Nam June Paik's work and many things
that
> came after. Postmaterial art housed in a tv box.
>
> klaus
>

After 4 billion years of the evolution of life on planet Earth,
a success largely based on the development of sense perceptions, the
synthetic elimination of dimensionalities,
or the desensitization of our sense perceptions,
may become a factor in our evolutionary future.

Let's "wait" and see.

Cris

🔗Aaron Krister Johnson <aaron@akjmusic.com>

On Wednesday 19 October 2005 12:56 pm, Carl Lumma wrote:
> > Ok, Cris, we get it: you wish to invalid all forms of electronic
> > music. Electronic music sucks because the instruments are not
> > 3-dimensional (a half-truth BTW, since my computer is a
> > 4-dimensional object, but whatever). And, according to you,
> > no TRUE ART can be done in EM.
> >
> > In the meantime, I'm going to continue to use electronic means
> > when and where I want to, so you haven't converted me.
>
> My vote is for moderators to censor anyone who makes 10 short,
> pithy posts in a row about how electronic music isn't valid.
> That's not what we're here to discuss. The on-topic traffic
> on the list is too high for most readers as it is.

amen to that.

but, it's more potent, IMO, just to ignore trolling like that. usually, they
just eventually leave, or start saying things halfway interesting or
productive.

-aaron.

🔗Aaron Krister Johnson <aaron@akjmusic.com>

On Wednesday 19 October 2005 12:39 pm, Cris Forster wrote:

cris:
<snipped "random pithy collection of anti-electronic music ranting">

aaron:
<snipped "i like EM, so i don't care what you say">

cris:
> In case you haven't noticed, I live in a democracy where minority
> opinions are not necessarily irrelevant or belligerent opinions.

in case *you* haven't noticed, stating your opinions in a forum where there
exist quite a few people who would find them extremely irritating. having
said that, you are free to state them, yes, you are living in a democracy.
and we who find them annoying and nauseating are free to send your comments
to /dev/null. manners are still important in democracy to those who practice
manners.

more to the point, your opinions seem to be designed to irritate, not to
enlighten or engage people in conversation. they are ranting monologues, so
don't be surprised when you come into a 'virtual' discussion and people get
pissed off when you shoot off about how illegitimate what they are doing is.

> I don't know what "objects" are not four-dimensional.

and yet you persist in dismissing EM as less than 3-dimensional. go figure.

-aaron

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@superonline.com>

Vive la grand difference!

----- Original Message -----
From: Aaron Krister Johnson
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 20 Ekim 2005 Perşembe 4:11
Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: real or virtual instruments

On Wednesday 19 October 2005 12:39 pm, Cris Forster wrote:

cris:
<snipped "random pithy collection of anti-electronic music ranting">

aaron:
<snipped "i like EM, so i don't care what you say">

cris:
> In case you haven't noticed, I live in a democracy where minority
> opinions are not necessarily irrelevant or belligerent opinions.

> I don't know what "objects" are not four-dimensional.

and yet you persist in dismissing EM as less than 3-dimensional. go figure.

-aaron

🔗Aaron Krister Johnson <aaron@akjmusic.com>

On Wednesday 19 October 2005 9:04 pm, Ozan Yarman wrote:
> Vive la grand difference!

I'll say........

-Aaron.

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Aaron Krister Johnson
> To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: 20 Ekim 2005 Perşembe 4:11
> Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: real or virtual instruments
>
>
> On Wednesday 19 October 2005 12:39 pm, Cris Forster wrote:
>
> cris:
> <snipped "random pithy collection of anti-electronic music ranting">
>
> aaron:
> <snipped "i like EM, so i don't care what you say">
>
> cris:
> > In case you haven't noticed, I live in a democracy where minority
> > opinions are not necessarily irrelevant or belligerent opinions.
>
> in case *you* haven't noticed, stating your opinions in a forum where
> there exist quite a few people who would find them extremely irritating.
> having said that, you are free to state them, yes, you are living in a
> democracy. and we who find them annoying and nauseating are free to send
> your comments to /dev/null. manners are still important in democracy to
> those who practice manners.
>
> more to the point, your opinions seem to be designed to irritate, not to
> enlighten or engage people in conversation. they are ranting monologues,
> so don't be surprised when you come into a 'virtual' discussion and people
> get pissed off when you shoot off about how illegitimate what they are
> doing is.
>
> > I don't know what "objects" are not four-dimensional.
>
> and yet you persist in dismissing EM as less than 3-dimensional. go
> figure.
>
> -aaron

🔗Cris Forster <cris.forster@comcast.net>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@s...> wrote:
>
> Vive la grand difference!
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Aaron Krister Johnson
> To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: 20 Ekim 2005 Perþembe 4:11
> Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: real or virtual instruments
>
>
> On Wednesday 19 October 2005 12:39 pm, Cris Forster wrote:
>
> cris:
> <snipped "random pithy collection of anti-electronic music
ranting">
>
> aaron:
> <snipped "i like EM, so i don't care what you say">
>
> cris:
> > In case you haven't noticed, I live in a democracy where
minority
> > opinions are not necessarily irrelevant or belligerent
opinions.
>
> in case *you* haven't noticed, stating your opinions in a forum
where there
> exist quite a few people who would find them extremely
irritating. having
> said that, you are free to state them, yes, you are living in a
democracy.
> and we who find them annoying and nauseating are free to send
your comments
> to /dev/null. manners are still important in democracy to those
who practice
> manners.
>
> more to the point, your opinions seem to be designed to
irritate, not to
> enlighten or engage people in conversation. they are ranting
monologues, so
> don't be surprised when you come into a 'virtual' discussion and
people get
> pissed off when you shoot off about how illegitimate what they
are doing is.
>
> > I don't know what "objects" are not four-dimensional.
>
> and yet you persist in dismissing EM as less than 3-dimensional.
go figure.
>
> -aaron
>

an object is not a source

🔗Cris Forster <cris.forster@comcast.net>

Vive la Non-Différence!

🔗monz <monz@tonalsoft.com>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Krister Johnson <aaron@a...> wrote:
>
> On Wednesday 19 October 2005 12:56 pm, Carl Lumma wrote:
> >
> > My vote is for moderators to censor anyone who makes 10 short,
> > pithy posts in a row about how electronic music isn't valid.
> > That's not what we're here to discuss. The on-topic traffic
> > on the list is too high for most readers as it is.
>
> amen to that.
>
> but, it's more potent, IMO, just to ignore trolling like
> that. usually, they just eventually leave, or start saying
> things halfway interesting or productive.

It's too bad that Cris appeared here out of nowhere and
immediately got involved in this ugly exchange. He's done
a lot of good work in microtonality, but has gotten off
to a bad start on this list.

http://www.chrysalis-foundation.org/

-monz
http://tonalsoft.com
Tonescape microtonal music software

🔗monz <monz@tonalsoft.com>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@anaphoria.com>

now now boys all he said was somethings were virtual instruments.
something upheld by the magazine i posted in question.
how is this different that calling acrylic paint, synthetic.
i do not remember him commenting on anyones talent.
but an observation.
those working in electronics i have watched over the years , and i mean years, i have noticed have not developed much in ability to perform in real time on there instruemnt.
Most of the perceived changes are when they but new gear.
On the other hand those that play acoustic instruments seem to improve and develop much more.
This could be that acoustic instruments do not change where electronic instruments do , so that one never keeps one around long enough to really develop in the same way.
while in the short term i find it useful and informative, i admit it leaves me rather unsatisfied.
once done with something, i am not inclined to return to it.
the palette of expression is rather limited and the most sucessiveful are those forms where short fragments are used. probably cause one does not hear the timbre too long to fatigue from it.
And fatique is an important aspect of these things. the lenth of time one can spend on one is limited compared to an acoustic instruments. unless one is playing nagasvaram.
no one is going to do an electronic keyboard version of the well tuned piano
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@svpal.org>

🔗hstraub64 <hstraub64@telesonique.net>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:
>
>
> now now boys all he said was somethings were virtual instruments.
> something upheld by the magazine i posted in question.

Well, the term "virtual instrument" is true in the sense that a
software synthesizer emulating a piano sound is sure not a real piano
- it is a virtual piano. But it is clearly a real musical instrument,
since it produces real sound. The comparison with a flight simulator
does not hold here.

> how is this different that calling acrylic paint, synthetic.
> i do not remember him commenting on anyones talent.

> but an observation.
> those working in electronics i have watched over the years , and i
> mean years,
> i have noticed have not developed much in ability to
> perform in real time on there instruemnt.
> Most of the perceived changes are when they but new gear.
> On the other hand those that play acoustic instruments seem to
> improve and develop much more.

My observations over the years (and I mean years) do not confirm this.
Some make progress, some do not, be the instruments acoustic or electric.

> This could be that acoustic instruments do not change where
> electronic instruments do , so that one never keeps one around long
> enough to really develop in the same way.
>

Acoustic instruments change, too - most have changed considerably in
the last 200 years. They change not as fast today because of their
longer history during which there was enough time to perfect them. The
longer history also means there are more creative minds that have had
the opportunity to develop new playing techniques.

> the palette of expression is rather limited and the most
> sucessiveful are those forms where short fragments are used.
> probably cause one does
> not hear the timbre too long to fatigue from it.

I consider this a question of personal taste. Everybody is, of course,
free not to like the sound of any instrument - but this does not touch
the question of what is a "real" musical instrument. Electricity is a
physical reality, and so is the fact that electricity can produce
sound. And everything that can produce sound can be a musical
instrument. Nothing to debate, IMHO - except maybe one point that Monz
addressed: the one about the possibility to play in "real time". For
if there is the possibility to play in "real time", the palette of
expressions is always unlimited, as far as the time dimension is
concerned. No autopilot!

> no one is going to do an electronic keyboard version of the well
> tuned piano
>

Who knows?
--
Hans Straub

🔗Aaron Krister Johnson <aaron@akjmusic.com>

On Thursday 20 October 2005 1:03 am, monz wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Krister Johnson <aaron@a...> wrote:
> > On Wednesday 19 October 2005 12:56 pm, Carl Lumma wrote:
> > > My vote is for moderators to censor anyone who makes 10 short,
> > > pithy posts in a row about how electronic music isn't valid.
> > > That's not what we're here to discuss. The on-topic traffic
> > > on the list is too high for most readers as it is.
> >
> > amen to that.
> >
> > but, it's more potent, IMO, just to ignore trolling like
> > that. usually, they just eventually leave, or start saying
> > things halfway interesting or productive.
>
> It's too bad that Cris appeared here out of nowhere and
> immediately got involved in this ugly exchange. He's done
> a lot of good work in microtonality, but has gotten off
> to a bad start on this list.
>
> http://www.chrysalis-foundation.org/

.....it is a cool site, and i've come across it before. too bad he seems not
to be generous to a large block of his fellow microtonalists.

as a lover of *both* acoustic and EM, i find that it's not ingratiating
behavior to come into a mailing list and attack/question the legitimacy of
what more than half the people here practice (EM). saying 'EM is not for me'
would be another story altogether, but instead, we get mocking sarcasm like
"imagine a virtual dance" and "tell the whole virtual truth and nothing but
the whole virtual truth", etc. etc.

i'm filtering out to the 'virtual trash bin' mr. fosters posts so i'm not
tempted to answer them and waste my time (graham breed rightly chided me
privately for not practicing what i preach regarding trolls). if the air
changes around here and he starts being a nice mutually supportive guy to the
people who would otherwise uphold *his* microtonal cause, or posting
genuinely interesting content, i trust someone will alert me.

-aaron.

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@anaphoria.com>

Hello my dear Hans.
rest assure i know that my responses are subjective. we are talking about music which is very much that way.
Nothing trills me more, and i do not understand why, that your experiences is different than mine.
I think it is marvelous
there are all type of possible reasons that if we had time, i am sure we would learn allot as to why we gravitate to what we do .
I have met people who say they can not stand acoustic instruments, they claim they find the wave dorms not pure.
But if i say i cannot listen to nagasvaram for very long and few can, i imagine that my response tocertain type of electronic sound is not that much different , except in at least in some of the examples i put forth.
one being hip hop , it sounds great in hip hop

Message: 11 Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 11:23:50 -0000
From: "hstraub64" <hstraub64@telesonique.net>
Subject: Re: real or virtual instruments

>> no one is going to do an electronic keyboard version of the well >> tuned piano
>> > >

Who knows?
-- Hans Straub

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Yahya Abdal-Aziz <yahya@melbpc.org.au>

On Thu, 20 Oct 2005, "Cris Forster" wrote:
>
> Vive la Non-Diffï¿½rence!
>
... [other "noises off" snipt]

Has anyone noticed that the signal-to-noise ratio
on this "squawk box" has dropped alarmingly of late?

I think I'll just have to turn it off for a while, until
the reception improves. Pity to miss out on a few
_well-tempered_ contributions, tho ...

Regards,
Yahya

--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.12.4/143 - Release Date: 19/10/05

🔗hstraub64 <hstraub64@telesonique.net>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:
>
> Hello my dear Hans.
> rest assure i know that my responses are subjective. we are talking
> about music which is very much that way.

Sure it is! There are, however, always people around who try to make
sort of objective claims (not just here), which tends to upset me.

> Nothing trills me more, and i do not understand why, that your
> experiences is different than mine.
> I think it is marvelous
> there are all type of possible reasons that if we had time, i am
> sure we would learn allot as to why we gravitate to what we do .
> I have met people who say they can not stand acoustic instruments,
> they claim they find the wave dorms not pure.
> But if i say i cannot listen to nagasvaram for very long and few
> can, i imagine that my response tocertain type of electronic sound
> is not that much different , except in at least in some of the
> examples i put forth.
> one being hip hop , it sounds great in hip hop
>

Some more informations here: my personal preferences at the moment
tend towards acoustical instruments, too (after an electronic phase of
several years) - and I see well that many eleoctronic instruments
avavailable today have a danger inside: that of getting lost in their
features. My Roland JX1010 has many hundreds of presets, and I have
wasted quite some time trying them out (and not made much musical
progress in this time) - I haven't even tried them all til today.
All of which, of course, has nothing to do with the question of what
is a "real" instrument. Nobody is forced to get lost...
--
Hans Straub