More blues

A couple more thoughts: the rhythms of blues (and R&B, funk, swing, etc) are also really a huge part of the whole style, and perhaps the most difficult to really nail. To oversimplify a bit, while European classical music is ON the beat, so to speak, blues and other Afro inspired musics are sort of between the beat, and not very easy to notate on paper...again, it needs to be felt and internalized. I call it the grease, and without that component blues sounds, actually, rather humorous. While most musicians will count a blues rhythm in 4/4 time, it's really 12/8, with incredible deviations from the basic pulse, sort of micro rhythms, if you will, and very difficult for most people to do well. My students, for the most part, have a hell of a time just learning a simple, one chord funk vamp, like a James Brown thing, because they always want to play right on the beat, but it ain't there, and it can take a long time to get that part of blues related music down.
I have a record of Islamic music, and one of the cuts is a percussionist, accompanied by some sort of lute (it's Afghan musicians, I believe)...it's a percussion solo, but the amazing thing is the lute accompaniment, which sounds exactly like an American boogie-woogie pattern...in C, it is C-E-G-A-Bb-A-G-E-C. I've played that for my blues students, and they crack up. So, somehow there's a connection between Arabic music and North American blues styles, and of course the basic pentatonic sort of blues scale came over with the slaves, so that's not surprising. And, I just read an interview with one of Dizzy Gillespie's old pianists/arrangers (Mike Longo), and he said that he and Diz were in agreement that jazz was, basically, African rhythmic concepts mixed with European harmonic structures...quite true.
And, one reason I like 19 tone eq temp is because you can take traditional forms, such as blues, jazz, country etc, and stretch them a bit, to where it still sounds familiar, but a bit whacked. I've rewritten Coltrane's "Giant Steps" for 19, and it's a hoot, cause it now has 28 measures instead of 16, and is a sonofabitch to play. That's why the retro jazz thing that's so prominent now is such a drag...I think that non 12 systems, such as 19 and others, is exactly where jazz needs to go to remain vital and challenging...but, it ain't happening. Most of the time on the local Denver jazz outlet, you can't tell if it's 1955 or 2005, cause everybody's doing the classics again. It's like what's happened to classical music, it's fossilized to the point of complete boredom...trying my best to change that...HHH
PS...speaking of jazz, I just saw David Leibman's 18 piece big band...absolutely mind blowing, with great writing/arranging/playing from all...state of the art music....

Please Neil, Afghan musicians do not play Arabic Music unless born and raised in pre-dominantly Arabicized countries. Why don't you adopt the usage "Maqam Music" instead? It is a general international cross-cultural term, which is long overdue in its application.

----- Original Message -----
From: Neil Haverstick
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 16 Ekim 2005 Pazar 22:14
Subject: [tuning] More blues

A couple more thoughts: the rhythms of blues (and R&B, funk, swing, etc)
are also really a huge part of the whole style, and perhaps the most
difficult to really nail. To oversimplify a bit, while European classical
music is ON the beat, so to speak, blues and other Afro inspired musics are
sort of between the beat, and not very easy to notate on paper...again, it
needs to be felt and internalized. I call it the grease, and without that
component blues sounds, actually, rather humorous. While most musicians will
count a blues rhythm in 4/4 time, it's really 12/8, with incredible
deviations from the basic pulse, sort of micro rhythms, if you will, and
very difficult for most people to do well. My students, for the most part,
have a hell of a time just learning a simple, one chord funk vamp, like a
James Brown thing, because they always want to play right on the beat, but
it ain't there, and it can take a long time to get that part of blues
related music down.
I have a record of Islamic music, and one of the cuts is a percussionist,
accompanied by some sort of lute (it's Afghan musicians, I believe)...it's a
percussion solo, but the amazing thing is the lute accompaniment, which
sounds exactly like an American boogie-woogie pattern...in C, it is
C-E-G-A-Bb-A-G-E-C. I've played that for my blues students, and they crack
up. So, somehow there's a connection between Arabic music and North American
blues styles, and of course the basic pentatonic sort of blues scale came
over with the slaves, so that's not surprising. And, I just read an
interview with one of Dizzy Gillespie's old pianists/arrangers (Mike Longo),
and he said that he and Diz were in agreement that jazz was, basically,
African rhythmic concepts mixed with European harmonic structures...quite
true.
And, one reason I like 19 tone eq temp is because you can take
traditional forms, such as blues, jazz, country etc, and stretch them a bit,
to where it still sounds familiar, but a bit whacked. I've rewritten
Coltrane's "Giant Steps" for 19, and it's a hoot, cause it now has 28
measures instead of 16, and is a sonofabitch to play. That's why the retro
jazz thing that's so prominent now is such a drag...I think that non 12
systems, such as 19 and others, is exactly where jazz needs to go to remain
vital and challenging...but, it ain't happening. Most of the time on the
local Denver jazz outlet, you can't tell if it's 1955 or 2005, cause
everybody's doing the classics again. It's like what's happened to classical
music, it's fossilized to the point of complete boredom...trying my best to
change that...HHH
PS...speaking of jazz, I just saw David Leibman's 18 piece big
band...absolutely mind blowing, with great writing/arranging/playing from
all...state of the art music....

Hi Neil,

Many thanks for your amplifications of what i wrote
about blues.

I should make it clear that while my statements apply
in a general way to all blues styles, i'm most familiar
with Delta blues (Robert Johnson in particular), B. B King,
and also Jimi Hendrix's blues playing, so that's where
my posts apply most.

A couple of specific comments ... which brings this discussion
back to where it started, pentatonicism:

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Neil Haverstick" <microstick@m...> wrote:

> So, somehow there's a connection between Arabic music
> and North American blues styles, and of course the basic
> pentatonic sort of blues scale came over with the slaves,
> so that's not surprising.

I'm not going to dispute that, but it should also be
noted that pentatonic scales are the foundation of
*many* types of music all over the world, especially
in the folk and pop genres.

The Europeans who settled in America already had
pentatonic folksongs they brought with them, so the
pentatonicism of the blues didn't necessarily "come"
from Africa. More below ...

> And, I just read an interview with one of Dizzy
> Gillespie's old pianists/arrangers (Mike Longo),
> and he said that he and Diz were in agreement that
> jazz was, basically, African rhythmic concepts mixed
> with European harmonic structures...quite true.

Yes, that's the standard story concerning jazz.
It started with ragtime, which fused the European
1-2 march beat in the left hand of the piano part
with the "ragged timing" of the right hand part
emulating banjo picking styles.

But note that the blues *also* are a combination of
African and European elements ... altho in the blues
i would dare say the African elements are both more
prominent and more important. In ragtime and jazz,
the two cultural styles were more equally balanced.

But my point is that blues too has aspects of Euro-based
folksong in it, particularly from the angle of Christian
spirituals sung by African-American slaves which have
their roots in Euro-style hymns.

Recently i took on the volunteer job as pianist for
the choir which sings at a monthly African mass in a
Catholic church. I do it because i love the African
music ... but i was fascinated to find out how much
African catholics use and love the old-fashioned hymns,
such as "What A Friend We Have In Jesus". I hadn't
expected that, and those hymns are *so* different from
the really African music of the other pieces we do.

> I've rewritten Coltrane's "Giant Steps" for 19, and
> it's a hoot, cause it now has 28 measures instead of 16,
> and is a sonofabitch to play.

I want to hear that! It's one of my all-time faves.

> That's why the retro jazz thing that's so prominent now
> is such a drag... <snip> It's like what's happened to
> classical music, it's fossilized to the point of complete
> boredom...

I hear you there! I've thought the same thing myself.

PS -- Neil, if i make to the next MahlerFest this coming
January (in Boulder), i *definitely* want to get together
with you!

-monz
http://tonalsoft.com
Tonescape microtonal music software