Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning Blues

As a longtime blues player/composer/teacher, the subject is of great interest to me, so I want to make a few general comments about the recent discussion. I have no problem with Monz's view on blues theory, how the scales and chords work in the form of blues, but there's more. For example, as soon as I start teaching someone how to solo, it becomes apparent that the PHRASING, how one uses the notes of the so called blues scale, is absolutely essential. And then, you slowly come to realize that the scales used in blues are only rough templates, that the many zillions of blues melodies/phrases are really where it's at. I always have my students improvise around the blues scale while I play rhythm (which is another can of worms as well in blues), and while it usually sounds sort of ok, it's light years away from what happens when I have them play rhythm, and I'll start applying the manymany blues riffs I am familiar with..they usually crack up, and then we start the years long process of teaching them the seed riffs that form the basis for the literally endless sets of riff variations that have been and are still used by blues musicians to make their statements.
As Monz pointed out, blues uses dominant 7th chords as it's foundation, and that means that blues (as well as a lot of jazz) is a very tense sounding music, overall. And, there are also many regional styles of blues, from the east coast folk style of Piedmont blues, to the jazzy/swinging KC/Southwest style, to the famous Delta blues, to the big band LA sounds of Johnny Otis, and many stops inbetween. And, the phrasing/concept of one style may not necessarily apply too well to another style, so if you've got your Stevie Ray chops down, it won't do you a lot of good if you want to play like Robert Johnson or Merle Travis. And, on the subject of phrasing, there's a fascinating point to be made: you can help people understand how to make good sounding blues phrases, but you cannot tell them WHEN to use any particular phrase in a tune...that's all done by feel, and it can take many years for someone to develop the ability to make up their own solos. In other words, the second you decide to become a blues musician, you are automatically an arranger/composer, and are (eventually) expected to come up with your own thing...very difficult, and very few people ever do it. What I do to get folks rolling is to have them start learning many of the standard tunes of the blues repertoire, such as Rock me Baby, Hootchie Cootchie Man, I'm A Man, T Bone Shuffle, Born Under a Bad Sign, and many more. Each one of those tunes has a distinctive phrase as it's main motif, and then we learn to improvise off those riffs.
Since I'm a guitarist, we look at BB and Albert King, Hubert Sumlin, Albert Collins, T Bone, and anybody else the student might be interested in...and it's amazing that you will hear many of the same licks from player to player, but subtly changed a bit to fit their own style/personality.
And as far as string bending, that is indeed the toughest part to teach. What's interesting to me is that to this date, I have never seen one blues maestro analyze what they do in terms of ratios, or where a note falls on the pitch continuum...they all learned it by copying others, and then forming their own aproach from what they copped from their mentors...but to say, here's a neutral 3rd or a 7/4, never seen it. But, since I am into tunings, I do talk to all my students about pitch and ratios a bit, but it sure doesn't help them much when they try to bend the minor 3rd up a bit and hit the "right" pitch (of which there can be many). And, this is where Can Akkoc's study of master Turkish musicians and where they place their notes, is very similar to blues...what happens in reality, and the so called theory, may not mesh up exactly.
Because, in the final analysis, blues is from the heart, not the head, as they say, and the self expression of the individual is where it's at. I've heard notes bent to all sorts of places, by guitarists vocalists, and horn players, and they usually never do it the same way twice...which makes it, again, very difficult to explain and teach to folks. A lot of listening, and stealing licks from the maestros, is what I recommend, and then the ability to extrapolate from what you have learned, and make it your own thing...takes a while, but I think blues is one of the greatmusical forms of history, and well worth studying and learning from...best...HHH
microstick.net

🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@cox.net>

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@superonline.com>

Neil, I was almost excommunicated here for questioning the authority of Al-Farabi and Ibn-Sina. So mind what you say about theory not living up to reality. ;)

Oz.
----- Original Message -----
From: Neil Haverstick
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 16 Ekim 2005 Pazar 18:39
Subject: [tuning] Blues

SNIP!

And as far as string bending, that is indeed the toughest part to teach.
What's interesting to me is that to this date, I have never seen one blues
maestro analyze what they do in terms of ratios, or where a note falls on
the pitch continuum...they all learned it by copying others, and then
forming their own aproach from what they copped from their mentors...but to
say, here's a neutral 3rd or a 7/4, never seen it. But, since I am into
tunings, I do talk to all my students about pitch and ratios a bit, but it
sure doesn't help them much when they try to bend the minor 3rd up a bit and
hit the "right" pitch (of which there can be many). And, this is where Can
Akkoc's study of master Turkish musicians and where they place their notes,
is very similar to blues...what happens in reality, and the so called
theory, may not mesh up exactly.
Because, in the final analysis, blues is from the heart, not the head, as
they say, and the self expression of the individual is where it's at. I've
heard notes bent to all sorts of places, by guitarists vocalists, and horn
players, and they usually never do it the same way twice...which makes it,
again, very difficult to explain and teach to folks. A lot of listening, and
stealing licks from the maestros, is what I recommend, and then the ability
to extrapolate from what you have learned, and make it your own
thing...takes a while, but I think blues is one of the greatmusical forms of
history, and well worth studying and learning from...best...HHH
microstick.net

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@svpal.org>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Neil Haverstick" <microstick@m...> wrote:

> What's interesting to me is that to this date, I have never seen one
blues
> maestro analyze what they do in terms of ratios, or where a note
falls on
> the pitch continuum...they all learned it by copying others, and then
> forming their own aproach from what they copped from their
mentors...but to
> say, here's a neutral 3rd or a 7/4, never seen it.

All that says is that blues musicians are like most other musicians,
in that they are not tuning theorists. It doesn't tell us one way or
another if a septimal interpretation of blues practice is or is not
useful.

But, since I am into
> tunings, I do talk to all my students about pitch and ratios a bit,
but it
> sure doesn't help them much when they try to bend the minor 3rd up a
bit and
> hit the "right" pitch (of which there can be many).

If they are tring to bend 300 cents upwards, hasn't your discussion of
ratios already had an effect?

And, this is where Can
> Akkoc's study of master Turkish musicians and where they place their
notes,
> is very similar to blues...what happens in reality, and the so called
> theory, may not mesh up exactly.

What happens in reality, and 12edo, may not mesh up exactly either;
this does not mean trying to understand contemporary Western music in
terms of 12edo to start out with makes no sense.

> Because, in the final analysis, blues is from the heart, not the
head, as
> they say...

And this makes it different from grand opera exactly how?

and the self expression of the individual is where it's at. I've
> heard notes bent to all sorts of places, by guitarists vocalists,
and horn
> players, and they usually never do it the same way twice...which
makes it,
> again, very difficult to explain and teach to folks.

Again, you could compare that to opera.

Blues

🔗Neil Haverstick <microstick@msn.com>

🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@cox.net>

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@superonline.com>

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@svpal.org>

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@svpal.org>

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@superonline.com>

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@svpal.org>

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@superonline.com>