Re :the simplicity of 19-edo

"monz" <monz@tonalsoft.com> wrote:

"I agree more with Gene: the real difficulty would come in
not post-1850, but post-1908 -- the year Schoenberg invented
atonality."

Schoenberg was definitely inventive, but he had some competition, for example, Franz Liszt's 1885 "Bagatelle ohne Tonart". (Naturally begging the question of whether "without a tonality" the same as "atonal"?)

DJW

Hi Daniel,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Wolf <djwolf@s...> wrote:
>
> "monz" <monz@t...> wrote:
>
>
> "I agree more with Gene: the real difficulty would come in
> not post-1850, but post-1908 -- the year Schoenberg invented
> atonality."
>
> Schoenberg was definitely inventive, but he had some
> competition, for example, Franz Liszt's 1885 "Bagatelle
> ohne Tonart". (Naturally begging the question of whether
> "without a tonality" the same as "atonal"?)

Good to see you posting here again. I always enjoy
reading what you have to write.

I've written a fair amount of stuff about the amazing
pieces Liszt wrote towards the end of his life ... but
i'm not at all familiar with that one.

Seems to me that "without a tonality" does mean the
same as "atonal". I'll have to hear the piece.

Anyway, i have to agree with you on the fact that
Liszt wrote harmonically innovative -- even adventurous
-- music when Schoenberg was just beginning to learn
how to play the violin as a young kid.

-monz
http://tonalsoft.com
Tonescape microtonal music software

La Lugubre Gondola as well.

The Bagatelle Sans tonalite ends with a series of flourishes. It
seems to spend much of its time hanging about on a subminor chord
(cant remember which).

Of course a lot of this was colouristic writing - a preecho of
Debussy perhaps, with whole tone scales, serial themes (Faust),
suspended harmony (Bagatelle), Scriabinesque melancholy (Gondola)

I like to think Liszt is in relation to Debussy and similar composers
as Turner was to Monet and the later impressionists. (Or possibly
even as Whistler is to Monet?)

Mark

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@t...> wrote:
>
> Hi Daniel,
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Wolf <djwolf@s...> wrote:
> >
> > "monz" <monz@t...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > "I agree more with Gene: the real difficulty would come in
> > not post-1850, but post-1908 -- the year Schoenberg invented
> > atonality."
> >
> > Schoenberg was definitely inventive, but he had some
> > competition, for example, Franz Liszt's 1885 "Bagatelle
> > ohne Tonart". (Naturally begging the question of whether
> > "without a tonality" the same as "atonal"?)
>
>
> Good to see you posting here again. I always enjoy
> reading what you have to write.
>
> I've written a fair amount of stuff about the amazing
> pieces Liszt wrote towards the end of his life ... but
> i'm not at all familiar with that one.
>
> Seems to me that "without a tonality" does mean the
> same as "atonal". I'll have to hear the piece.
>
> Anyway, i have to agree with you on the fact that
> Liszt wrote harmonically innovative -- even adventurous
> -- music when Schoenberg was just beginning to learn
> how to play the violin as a young kid.
>
>
>
> -monz
> http://tonalsoft.com
> Tonescape microtonal music software
>

A subminor chord? I only know of that as a microtonal thing, like
6:7:9. Liszt wrote microtonal music? Please fill me in on the
terminology.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "microtonalist" <mark@e...> wrote:
>
> La Lugubre Gondola as well.
>
> The Bagatelle Sans tonalite ends with a series of flourishes. It
> seems to spend much of its time hanging about on a subminor chord
> (cant remember which).
>
> Of course a lot of this was colouristic writing - a preecho of
> Debussy perhaps, with whole tone scales, serial themes (Faust),
> suspended harmony (Bagatelle), Scriabinesque melancholy (Gondola)
>
> I like to think Liszt is in relation to Debussy and similar
composers
> as Turner was to Monet and the later impressionists. (Or possibly
> even as Whistler is to Monet?)
>
> Mark
>
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@t...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Daniel,
> >
> >
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Wolf <djwolf@s...> wrote:
> > >
> > > "monz" <monz@t...> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > "I agree more with Gene: the real difficulty would come in
> > > not post-1850, but post-1908 -- the year Schoenberg invented
> > > atonality."
> > >
> > > Schoenberg was definitely inventive, but he had some
> > > competition, for example, Franz Liszt's 1885 "Bagatelle
> > > ohne Tonart". (Naturally begging the question of whether
> > > "without a tonality" the same as "atonal"?)
> >
> >
> > Good to see you posting here again. I always enjoy
> > reading what you have to write.
> >
> > I've written a fair amount of stuff about the amazing
> > pieces Liszt wrote towards the end of his life ... but
> > i'm not at all familiar with that one.
> >
> > Seems to me that "without a tonality" does mean the
> > same as "atonal". I'll have to hear the piece.
> >
> > Anyway, i have to agree with you on the fact that
> > Liszt wrote harmonically innovative -- even adventurous
> > -- music when Schoenberg was just beginning to learn
> > how to play the violin as a young kid.
> >
> >
> >
> > -monz
> > http://tonalsoft.com
> > Tonescape microtonal music software
> >
>

>
>
> I have the opening of this work in front of me:
>
> Opening melodic shape: (capitals for rising pitch, lowercase for > falling)
>
> Dsharp E b F. repeated several times, concluding in a Csharp D E F > flourish.
>
> Opening chord is GBDF moving to GBDFsharp., on a D pedal.
>
> The subminor chord is CsharpEGB. (half dim 7th is another name for it > I suppose). Harmony hangs around this chord and its transpositions, > with a right hand traversing a fourth from E up to A. Other chords > include whole tone complexes.
>
> On Saturday, October 15, 2005, at 07:08 am, tuning@yahoogroups.com > wrote:
>
>> Message: 5
>> Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 20:28:03 -0000
>> From: "wallyesterpaulrus" <wallyesterpaulrus@yahoo.com>
>> Subject: Re: Re :the simplicity of 19-edo
>>
>> A subminor chord? I only know of that as a microtonal thing, like
>> 6:7:9. Liszt wrote microtonal music? Please fill me in on the
>> terminology.
>>
>>
>>
>>

I've never heard of a half-diminished seventh chord being referred to
as 'subminor' before, but thanks for filling me in. I suppose this
puts another thorn in the side of the already-ailing project to name
at least a few microtonal chords (as Dave Keenan attempted to do).

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Mark Gould <mark@e...> wrote:
>
>
>
> >
> >
> > I have the opening of this work in front of me:
> >
> > Opening melodic shape: (capitals for rising pitch, lowercase for
> > falling)
> >
> > Dsharp E b F. repeated several times, concluding in a Csharp D E
F
> > flourish.
> >
> > Opening chord is GBDF moving to GBDFsharp., on a D pedal.
> >
> > The subminor chord is CsharpEGB. (half dim 7th is another name
for it
> > I suppose). Harmony hangs around this chord and its
transpositions,
> > with a right hand traversing a fourth from E up to A. Other
chords
> > include whole tone complexes.
> >
> > On Saturday, October 15, 2005, at 07:08 am,
tuning@yahoogroups.com
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Message: 5
> >> Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 20:28:03 -0000
> >> From: "wallyesterpaulrus" <wallyesterpaulrus@y...>
> >> Subject: Re: Re :the simplicity of 19-edo
> >>
> >> A subminor chord? I only know of that as a microtonal thing, like
> >> 6:7:9. Liszt wrote microtonal music? Please fill me in on the
> >> terminology.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
>