Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning otonal and utonal

Dear klause and geneward

1- if there is utonal relationship in otonal systems so may be otonal
relationship in utonal systems. (look at two systems at the bottom of
mail) the For example if we accept major triad chord 24:30:36 or 4:5:6
as a otonal relationship in the second system as otonal system, we can
also see in first utonal system 1/48:1/38:1/32 or 1/24:1/19:1/16 as
another version of major triad chord.

2- i wrote 1/48:1/38:1/32 or 1/24:1/19:1/16 because in utonal systems
which I think it is better for me to call them "" constant/decreasing
rational system "" the nominator is constant and denominator is
decreasing .this system is the same when you divide the lenght of the
string to equal parts which is difined by farabi in his book
musighi-al-kabir , working on tanbour of baghdad.

3- vice versa , in otonal systems which I call them ""
increasing/constant rational system "" the denominator is constant and
nominator is increasing so the chords are for example 4:5:6 .

4- I guess the numerary nexus in partch theory is the constant part
between system ratios (nominator or denominator)before simplification of
ratios.

5-In tonalsoft it is mentioned that otonality is major tonality and
utonality is minor :

If we assume a utonal rational system with cardinality(I use also this
word like in EDO SYSTEMS) OF 6:

....

1.5

....

1.33333333

1.66666667

....

1.25

1.5

1.75

....

1.2

1.4

1.6

1.8

....

1.16666667

1.33333333

1.5

1.66666667

1.83333333

....

1.14285714

1.28571429

1.42857143

1.57142857

1.71428571

....

1.125

1.25

1.375

1.5

....

1.11111111

1.22222222

1.33333333

....

1.1

1.2

....

1.09090909

....

We see:

0: 1/1 0.000 unison, perfect prime

1: 6/5 315.641 minor third

2: 3/2 701.955 perfect fifth

3: 2/1 1200.000 octave

Which has 1/6:1/5:1/4 which is equal to 10:12:15 in otonal system with
cardinality of 10 :

0: 1/1 0.000 unison, perfect prime

1: 11/10 165.004 4/5-tone, Ptolemy's second

2: 6/5 315.641 minor third

3: 13/10 454.214 tridecimal semi-diminished fourth

4: 7/5 582.512 septimal or Huygens' tritone, BP
fourth

5: 3/2 701.955 perfect fifth

6: 8/5 813.686 minor sixth

7: 17/10 918.642 septendecimal diminished seventh

8: 9/5 1017.596 just minor seventh, BP seventh

9: 19/10 1111.199 undevicesimal major seventh

10: 2/1 1200.000 octave

Now If we assume a rational system whit cardinality OF 4 in otonal
versions:

386.3137139

701.9550009

968.8259065

1200

We see (This is the first cardinality in otonal sytems to see 5/4):

0: 1/1 0.000 unison, perfect prime

1: 5/4 386.314 major third

2: 3/2 701.955 perfect fifth

3: 7/4 968.826 harmonic seventh

4: 2/1 1200.000 octave

Or 4:5:6 chord which are the same as 1/30:1/24:1/20 in utonal system
with cardinality=30

0: 1/1 0.000 unison, perfect prime

1: 30/29 58.692

2: 15/14 119.443 major diatonic semitone

3: 10/9 182.404 minor whole tone

4: 15/13 247.741 tridecimal 5/4-tone

5: 6/5 315.641 minor third

6: 5/4 386.314 major third

7: 30/23 459.994

8: 15/11 536.951 undecimal augmented fourth

9: 10/7 617.488 Euler's tritone

10: 3/2 701.955 perfect fifth

11: 30/19 790.756 smaller undevicesimal minor sixth

12: 5/3 884.359 major sixth, BP sixth

13: 30/17 983.313

14: 15/8 1088.269 classic major seventh

15: 2/1 1200.000 octave

6- In (utonal)c/d rational systems with odd cardinality we havn't any
octave but in systems with cardinality =k*4 the ratio 4/3 is center of
symetry:

(utonal) c/d rational systems with nominator=48

0: 1/1 0.000 unison, perfect prime

1: 48/47 36.448

2: 24/23 73.681

3: 16/15 111.731 minor diatonic semitone

4: 12/11 150.637 3/4-tone, undecimal neutral second

5: 48/43 190.437

6: 8/7 231.174 septimal whole tone

7: 48/41 272.893

8: 6/5 315.641 minor third

9: 16/13 359.472 tridecimal neutral third

10: 24/19 404.442 smaller undevicesimal major third

11: 48/37 450.611

12: 4/3 498.045 perfect fourth

13: 48/35 546.815 septimal semi-augmented fourth

14: 24/17 597.000 1st septendecimal tritone

15: 16/11 648.682 undecimal semi-diminished fifth

16: 3/2 701.955 perfect fifth

17: 48/31 756.919

18: 8/5 813.686 minor sixth

19: 48/29 872.378

20: 12/7 933.129 septimal major sixth

21: 16/9 996.090 Pythagorean minor seventh

22: 24/13 1061.427 tridecimal neutral seventh

23: 48/25 1129.328 classic diminished octave

24: 2/1 1200.000 octave

7- in(otonal) i/c rational systems with cardinality =k*4 the ratio 3/2
is structrually center of symmetry:

0: 1/1 0.000 unison, perfect prime

1: 25/24 70.672 classic chromatic semitone, minor
chroma

2: 13/12 138.573 tridecimal 2/3-tone

3: 9/8 203.910 major whole tone

4: 7/6 266.871 septimal minor third

5: 29/24 327.622

6: 5/4 386.314 major third

7: 31/24 443.081

8: 4/3 498.045 perfect fourth

9: 11/8 551.318 undecimal semi-augmented fourth

10: 17/12 603.000 2nd septendecimal tritone

11: 35/24 653.185 septimal semi-diminished fifth

12: 3/2 701.955 perfect fifth

13: 37/24 749.389

14: 19/12 795.558 undevicesimal minor sixth

15: 13/8 840.528 tridecimal neutral sixth

16: 5/3 884.359 major sixth, BP sixth

17: 41/24 927.107

18: 7/4 968.826 harmonic seventh

19: 43/24 1009.563

20: 11/6 1049.363 21/4-tone, undecimal neutral
seventh

21: 15/8 1088.269 classic major seventh

22: 23/12 1126.319 vicesimotertial major seventh

23: 47/24 1163.552

24: 2/1 1200.000 octave

8-as klause told:""......for instance the utonal series version of 11/8
is 16/11.... "", i can say that :

So may be correct that 4/3 is utonal of 3/2 in these 2 equal-degree
systems?

Utonal system

Otonal system

center of symmetry

Shaahin Mohaajeri

Tombak Player & Researcher , Composer

www.geocities.com/acousticsoftombak

My tombak musics : www.rhythmweb.com/gdg

My articles in ''Harmonytalk'':

www.harmonytalk.com/archives/000296.html
<http://www.harmonytalk.com/archives/000296.html>

www.harmonytalk.com/archives/000288.html
<http://www.harmonytalk.com/archives/000288.html>

My article in DrumDojo:

www.drumdojo.com/world/persia/tonbak_acoustics.htm
<http://www.drumdojo.com/world/persia/tonbak_acoustics.htm>

🔗monz <monz@tonalsoft.com>

🔗David Beardsley <db@biink.com>

🔗monz <monz@tonalsoft.com>

🔗David Beardsley <db@biink.com>

🔗monz <monz@tonalsoft.com>

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@superonline.com>

🔗Mohajeri Shahin <shahinm@kayson-ir.com>

DEAR BROTHER OZAN

AS YOU KNOW ,THE CONCEPT OF DASTGAH IS DIFFERENT FROM MAQAM , ALTHOUGH,
IN THE PAST THEY WERE DIFFERENTIATED FROM EACH OTHER AND KNOW THEY HAVE
MANY THINGS SIMILAR.

DASTGAH IS A COMPLEX OF SOME GUSHEH . SOME OF THESE GUSHEHS ARE SO
INDEPENDENT THAT WE THINK THEM AS A STRUCTURE WHICH CAN BE UNIQUE AND
BASE OF A NEW DASTGAH ( LIKE MOKHALEF IN SEGAH), ALSO SOME GUSHEHS ARE
PRODUCT OF MODULATION (LIKE IN DASTGAH SHUR)

THIS RELATIONS MAY BE TRACES FOR MAQAM STRUCTURE OF PERSIAN MUSIC.

EACH DASTGAH HAS A NOT-E-SHAHED WHICH IS EQUAL TO TONIC AND BASED ON
TETRACHORDS.WE HAVN'T ANY TRICHORDS LIKE ARAB MUSIC AND IN SOME DASTGAHS
ONE TETRACHORDS ARE THE SAME( LIKE IN CHAHARGAH AND BAYAT-E-ESFAHAN)

MOSTLY THE INTERVALIC STRUCTURE OF INSTRUMENT(FRETTING) IS NOT CHANGED
IN MODULATION OF DASTGAHS , LIKE THE MAQAM STRUCTURE YOU ARE WORKING
ON( AS I HAVE READ IN MAILS).

THE MOST IMPORTANT INTERVALS ARE FOURTH AND FIFTH (IN A SPECIES OF SEGAH
THERE IS NOT ANY FIFTH,BUT WE HAVE FOURTH )

, AND MOST IMPORTANT TUNINGS ARE BASED ON THESE 2 INTERVALS.SOME OTHER
NOTES ARE SO IMPORTANT THAN ACTS IN INSTRUMENT AS DRONE(LIKE NEUTRAL
THIRD AS DRONE IN SEGAH).

THE INTERVALIC RELATION OF TETRACHORDS ARE DIFFERENT FROM ONE TO ONE ,
OUR PLAYERS TUNE THEIR INSTRUMENTS LIKE YOU BUT THEY DON'T KNOW HOW TO
CALCULATE THE INTERVALS AND ONLY TUNE THEM BY EAR. SO YOU MUST ALSO
CONSIDER THE ERROR OF TUNING IN SUCH A CASE.

THE SEGAH EXAMPLE OF EBADI IN NEARLY 17-EDO IS AN EXAMPLE.

YOU CAN TUNE ALL DASTGAHS IN ALL SYSTEMS , NO SYSTEM IS BAD UNLESS
CHANGES THE MELODIC SENSE OF DASTGAH. BUT AS I TOLD BEFORE FOURTH AND
FIFTH ARE VERY IMPORTANT SO YOU CAN WORK ON SYSTEMS OFFERING THE
INTERVALLIC NEEDS OF TETRACHORDS AND DASTGAHS.

AND AT THE END YOU CAN CONSIDER A DASTGAH NOT AS A SCALE BUT AS A
MIXTURE OF DIFFERENT TETRACHORDS BASED ON A TUNING SYSTEM.

________________________________

From: tuning@yahoogroups.com [mailto:tuning@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Ozan Yarman
Sent: Friday, October 14, 2005 4:49 PM
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [tuning] otonal and utonal

Dear Brother Mohajeri, can you show us some Persian Dastgahs in these
utonal or otonal tunings?

Cordially,

Ozan

----- Original Message -----

From: Mohajeri Shahin <mailto:shahinm@kayson-ir.com>

To: tuning@yahoogroups.com

Sent: 10 Ekim 2005 Pazartesi 9:21

Subject: [tuning] otonal and utonal

Dear klause and geneward

1- if there is utonal relationship in otonal systems so may be
otonal relationship in utonal systems. (look at two systems at the
bottom of mail) the For example if we accept major triad chord 24:30:36
or 4:5:6 as a otonal relationship in the second system as otonal system,
we can also see in first utonal system 1/48:1/38:1/32 or 1/24:1/19:1/16
as another version of major triad chord.

2- i wrote 1/48:1/38:1/32 or 1/24:1/19:1/16 because in utonal
systems which I think it is better for me to call them ""
constant/decreasing rational system "" the nominator is constant and
denominator is decreasing .this system is the same when you divide the
lenght of the string to equal parts which is difined by farabi in his
book musighi-al-kabir , working on tanbour of baghdad.

3- vice versa , in otonal systems which I call them ""
increasing/constant rational system "" the denominator is constant and
nominator is increasing so the chords are for example 4:5:6 .

4- I guess the numerary nexus in partch theory is the constant
part between system ratios (nominator or denominator)before
simplification of ratios.

5-In tonalsoft it is mentioned that otonality is major tonality
and utonality is minor :

If we assume a utonal rational system with cardinality(I use
also this word like in EDO SYSTEMS) OF 6:

SNIP!

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🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@superonline.com>

Dear Brother Mohajeri,

I am not sure that the concept of Dastgah is all that different from Maqam. On the contrary, I believe they are very much synonymous. Of course this is a feeling of mine based on the observation that Maqam Music perdes have Persian names along with many Maqams and Terkibs. Add to that the fact that Ottoman-Persian history goes hand in hand in culture, poetry and music, we are one step away from concluding that we share almost the same traditions.

You recited an example where Mukhalif is a genre of Segah. In our treatises, Mukhalifek is a Segah Maqam (E F G A B C D# E) with the third note sharpened. There is also a Hijaz-i Mukhalif, which is essentially a Hijaz Maqam (G F# Ed D) that goes down to B as in the Segah tetrachord and ends with an A.

From Fractal Tune Smithy's default Persian Tar scale, I found Mukhalif to be:

9/8 32/27 4/3 3/2 81/50 729/400 2/1

In retrospect, here are the two available Segah Dastgahs:

9/8 243/200 4/3 3/2 81/50 16/9 2/1

(Mukhalif seems to be a detuned version of this)

27/25 243/200 4/3 36/25 81/50 729/400 2/1

This last one very much resembles one of our own Segah scales.

Here is Dastgah Shur from the same source:

27/25 32/27 4/3 3/2 128/81 16/9 2/1

Shur seems to be a variant of the second Segah Dastgah above. Also, Shuri is a perpendicularly blown perde Rast (or Neva 3/2 above) in the Ney. Because of the special angle of blowing for this pitch, the technique is called the "Shuri position".

It is equally important for us to preserve the pure fourth and fifth relations in Turkish Maqam Music. That is why Maqam scales are explained as tetrachords hereabouts. But I insist that there is a diatonical framework that allows tonality. That is why I conjured up 79-MOS 159-tET. I have been experimenting in delight with my new Qanun, and I do believe I have chanced upon many Dastgahs accidentally or wistfully.

Cordially,
Ozan

----- Original Message -----
From: Mohajeri Shahin
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 17 Ekim 2005 Pazartesi 14:53
Subject: RE: [tuning] otonal and utonal

DEAR BROTHER OZAN

AS YOU KNOW ,THE CONCEPT OF DASTGAH IS DIFFERENT FROM MAQAM , ALTHOUGH, IN THE PAST THEY WERE DIFFERENTIATED FROM EACH OTHER AND KNOW THEY HAVE MANY THINGS SIMILAR.

DASTGAH IS A COMPLEX OF SOME GUSHEH . SOME OF THESE GUSHEHS ARE SO INDEPENDENT THAT WE THINK THEM AS A STRUCTURE WHICH CAN BE UNIQUE AND BASE OF A NEW DASTGAH ( LIKE MOKHALEF IN SEGAH), ALSO SOME GUSHEHS ARE PRODUCT OF MODULATION (LIKE IN DASTGAH SHUR)

THIS RELATIONS MAY BE TRACES FOR MAQAM STRUCTURE OF PERSIAN MUSIC.

EACH DASTGAH HAS A NOT-E-SHAHED WHICH IS EQUAL TO TONIC AND BASED ON TETRACHORDS.WE HAVN'T ANY TRICHORDS LIKE ARAB MUSIC AND IN SOME DASTGAHS ONE TETRACHORDS ARE THE SAME( LIKE IN CHAHARGAH AND BAYAT-E-ESFAHAN)

MOSTLY THE INTERVALIC STRUCTURE OF INSTRUMENT(FRETTING) IS NOT CHANGED IN MODULATION OF DASTGAHS , LIKE THE MAQAM STRUCTURE YOU ARE WORKING ON( AS I HAVE READ IN MAILS).

THE MOST IMPORTANT INTERVALS ARE FOURTH AND FIFTH (IN A SPECIES OF SEGAH THERE IS NOT ANY FIFTH,BUT WE HAVE FOURTH )

, AND MOST IMPORTANT TUNINGS ARE BASED ON THESE 2 INTERVALS.SOME OTHER NOTES ARE SO IMPORTANT THAN ACTS IN INSTRUMENT AS DRONE(LIKE NEUTRAL THIRD AS DRONE IN SEGAH).

THE INTERVALIC RELATION OF TETRACHORDS ARE DIFFERENT FROM ONE TO ONE , OUR PLAYERS TUNE THEIR INSTRUMENTS LIKE YOU BUT THEY DON'T KNOW HOW TO CALCULATE THE INTERVALS AND ONLY TUNE THEM BY EAR. SO YOU MUST ALSO CONSIDER THE ERROR OF TUNING IN SUCH A CASE.

THE SEGAH EXAMPLE OF EBADI IN NEARLY 17-EDO IS AN EXAMPLE.

YOU CAN TUNE ALL DASTGAHS IN ALL SYSTEMS , NO SYSTEM IS BAD UNLESS CHANGES THE MELODIC SENSE OF DASTGAH. BUT AS I TOLD BEFORE FOURTH AND FIFTH ARE VERY IMPORTANT SO YOU CAN WORK ON SYSTEMS OFFERING THE INTERVALLIC NEEDS OF TETRACHORDS AND DASTGAHS.

AND AT THE END YOU CAN CONSIDER A DASTGAH NOT AS A SCALE BUT AS A MIXTURE OF DIFFERENT TETRACHORDS BASED ON A TUNING SYSTEM.

🔗Mohajeri Shahin <shahinm@kayson-ir.com>

Dear ozan

Indeed , many things are the same , but the sense of music is specific ,
in turkish , arabic an d persian like three brothers borned in a
house.all of us have many common theorethical concepts because of
theories received from farabi,ibn sina,ormavi,maraghi ,..... but the
framework of intervallic structure mainly in structural intervals of
modes, modal movement ,..... are specific. You know,scales and
tetrachord may be the same but the mixture of tetrachord and the way you
think musically due to the rules of modes different.may be we two play
in mokhalif but our taste of segah due to tuning of instrument ,
phrasing , ......different.

I have a book in farsi by the late maestro morteza han'naneh , a greate
theorician and composer, working on the root of dastgah , he proposed
that shur is the same as yegah , and rast is another root of persian
music.according to old documents from maraghi and ..... melodic and
rhythmic music of iran were bwsed on maqam concept.like the other parts
of islamic culture but unfortunately we don't know the time of change
to dastgah and loosing the rhythmic maqams.but as I mentioned before and
you told we can trace the footprint of maqams from names from common
structures and intonations.

We cant give exact scale-formula for each things in iranian music and
also middle east and may be all musics based on personal approach,
because of intervallic spectrum . I'm working on this item to see what
are the maximum and minimum limits of an interval to save the taste of
mode , indeed in degrees of good and bad . I don't mean that scales are
bad or good but modal taste for example can be qualified .

These sacles are near to theory of dr.barkeshli who told for example
quarter-tones in persiam music are just minor intervals + sy. Comma ,
but they are only two intervals in intervallic spectrum:

0: 1/1 0.000 unison, perfect prime

1: 27/25 133.238 large limma, BP small semitone

2: 243/200 337.148 acute minor third

3: 4/3 498.045 perfect fourth

4: 36/25 631.283 classic diminished fifth

5: 81/50 835.193 acute minor sixth

6: 729/400 1039.103 acute minor seventh

7: 2/1 1200.000 octave

0: 1/1 0.000 unison, perfect prime

1: 27/25 133.238 large limma, BP small semitone

2: 32/27 294.135 Pythagorean minor third

3: 4/3 498.045 perfect fourth

4: 3/2 701.955 perfect fifth

5: 128/81 792.180 Pythagorean minor sixth

6: 16/9 996.090 Pythagorean minor seventh

7: 2/1 1200.000 octave

________________________________

From: tuning@yahoogroups.com [mailto:tuning@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Ozan Yarman
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 5:14 AM
To: Tuning List
Subject: Re: [tuning] otonal and utonal

Dear Brother Mohajeri,

I am not sure that the concept of Dastgah is all that different from
Maqam. On the contrary, I believe they are very much synonymous. Of
course this is a feeling of mine based on the observation that Maqam
Music perdes have Persian names along with many Maqams and Terkibs. Add
to that the fact that Ottoman-Persian history goes hand in hand in
culture, poetry and music, we are one step away from concluding that we
share almost the same traditions.

You recited an example where Mukhalif is a genre of Segah. In our
treatises, Mukhalifek is a Segah Maqam (E F G A B C D# E) with the third
note sharpened. There is also a Hijaz-i Mukhalif, which is essentially a
Hijaz Maqam (G F# Ed D) that goes down to B as in the Segah tetrachord
and ends with an A.

From Fractal Tune Smithy's default Persian Tar scale, I found Mukhalif
to be:

9/8 32/27 4/3 3/2 81/50 729/400 2/1

In retrospect, here are the two available Segah Dastgahs:

9/8 243/200 4/3 3/2 81/50 16/9 2/1

(Mukhalif seems to be a detuned version of this)

27/25 243/200 4/3 36/25 81/50 729/400 2/1

This last one very much resembles one of our own Segah scales.

Here is Dastgah Shur from the same source:

27/25 32/27 4/3 3/2 128/81 16/9 2/1

Shur seems to be a variant of the second Segah Dastgah above. Also,
Shuri is a perpendicularly blown perde Rast (or Neva 3/2 above) in the
Ney. Because of the special angle of blowing for this pitch, the
technique is called the "Shuri position".

It is equally important for us to preserve the pure fourth and fifth
relations in Turkish Maqam Music. That is why Maqam scales are explained
as tetrachords hereabouts. But I insist that there is a diatonical
framework that allows tonality. That is why I conjured up 79-MOS
159-tET. I have been experimenting in delight with my new Qanun, and I
do believe I have chanced upon many Dastgahs accidentally or wistfully.

Cordially,

Ozan

----- Original Message -----

From: Mohajeri Shahin <mailto:shahinm@kayson-ir.com>

To: tuning@yahoogroups.com

Sent: 17 Ekim 2005 Pazartesi 14:53

Subject: RE: [tuning] otonal and utonal

DEAR BROTHER OZAN

AS YOU KNOW ,THE CONCEPT OF DASTGAH IS DIFFERENT FROM MAQAM ,
ALTHOUGH, IN THE PAST THEY WERE DIFFERENTIATED FROM EACH OTHER AND KNOW
THEY HAVE MANY THINGS SIMILAR.

DASTGAH IS A COMPLEX OF SOME GUSHEH . SOME OF THESE GUSHEHS ARE
SO INDEPENDENT THAT WE THINK THEM AS A STRUCTURE WHICH CAN BE UNIQUE AND
BASE OF A NEW DASTGAH ( LIKE MOKHALEF IN SEGAH), ALSO SOME GUSHEHS ARE
PRODUCT OF MODULATION (LIKE IN DASTGAH SHUR)

THIS RELATIONS MAY BE TRACES FOR MAQAM STRUCTURE OF PERSIAN
MUSIC.

EACH DASTGAH HAS A NOT-E-SHAHED WHICH IS EQUAL TO TONIC AND
BASED ON TETRACHORDS.WE HAVN'T ANY TRICHORDS LIKE ARAB MUSIC AND IN SOME
DASTGAHS ONE TETRACHORDS ARE THE SAME( LIKE IN CHAHARGAH AND
BAYAT-E-ESFAHAN)

MOSTLY THE INTERVALIC STRUCTURE OF INSTRUMENT(FRETTING) IS NOT
CHANGED IN MODULATION OF DASTGAHS , LIKE THE MAQAM STRUCTURE YOU ARE
WORKING ON( AS I HAVE READ IN MAILS).

THE MOST IMPORTANT INTERVALS ARE FOURTH AND FIFTH (IN A SPECIES
OF SEGAH THERE IS NOT ANY FIFTH,BUT WE HAVE FOURTH )

, AND MOST IMPORTANT TUNINGS ARE BASED ON THESE 2
INTERVALS.SOME OTHER NOTES ARE SO IMPORTANT THAN ACTS IN INSTRUMENT AS
DRONE(LIKE NEUTRAL THIRD AS DRONE IN SEGAH).

THE INTERVALIC RELATION OF TETRACHORDS ARE DIFFERENT FROM ONE TO
ONE , OUR PLAYERS TUNE THEIR INSTRUMENTS LIKE YOU BUT THEY DON'T KNOW
HOW TO CALCULATE THE INTERVALS AND ONLY TUNE THEM BY EAR. SO YOU MUST
ALSO CONSIDER THE ERROR OF TUNING IN SUCH A CASE.

THE SEGAH EXAMPLE OF EBADI IN NEARLY 17-EDO IS AN EXAMPLE.

YOU CAN TUNE ALL DASTGAHS IN ALL SYSTEMS , NO SYSTEM IS BAD
UNLESS CHANGES THE MELODIC SENSE OF DASTGAH. BUT AS I TOLD BEFORE FOURTH
AND FIFTH ARE VERY IMPORTANT SO YOU CAN WORK ON SYSTEMS OFFERING THE
INTERVALLIC NEEDS OF TETRACHORDS AND DASTGAHS.

AND AT THE END YOU CAN CONSIDER A DASTGAH NOT AS A SCALE BUT AS
A MIXTURE OF DIFFERENT TETRACHORDS BASED ON A TUNING SYSTEM.

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🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@superonline.com>

Dear brother in Islam,
----- Original Message -----
From: Mohajeri Shahin
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 18 Ekim 2005 Salı 7:11
Subject: RE: [tuning] otonal and utonal

Dear ozan

Indeed , many things are the same , but the sense of music is specific , in turkish , arabic an d persian like three brothers borned in a house.

Indeed!

all of us have many common theorethical concepts because of theories received from farabi,ibn sina,ormavi,maraghi ,…..

We can trace the common cultural heritage as near as the 18th century. Have you heard of Nayi Uthman Dede and Dmitri Kantemir?

but the framework of intervallic structure mainly in structural intervals of modes, modal movement ,….. are specific.

What do you make of my claim that these three brothers born under the same roof are all tonal genres? And that Dastgahs/Maqams are keys rather than modes?

You know,scales and tetrachord may be the same but the mixture of tetrachord and the way you think musically due to the rules of modes different.may be we two play in mokhalif but our taste of segah due to tuning of instrument , phrasing , ……different.

Misinterpretation, or outright denial of facts contained in historic treatises must be the cause of certain grotesque mistunings in my opinion. On the other hand, I concur that different tastes have evolved in Persia, Turkey and other Middle Eastern countries throughout the past millenium.

It is interesting how there occured this reactionary movement both in Turkey and Iran against the original Maqam so much so that we almost entirely reverted back to the tetrachordal system of Ancient Greek and Arab theoreticians.

like the other parts of islamic culture but unfortunately we don't know the time of change to dastgah and loosing the rhythmic maqams.but as I mentioned before and you told we can trace the footprint of maqams from names from common structures and intonations.

The living relic, so to speak. It is a wonder how it survived all that mutilation in the hands of nationalists.

We cant give exact scale-formula for each things in iranian music and also middle east and may be all musics based on personal approach, because of intervallic spectrum . I'm working on this item to see what are the maximum and minimum limits of an interval to save the taste of mode , indeed in degrees of good and bad . I don't mean that scales are bad or good but modal taste for example can be qualified .

Have you examined my 79 MOS 159-tET? I do believe that you can express all the tastes of Persian Art Music with this system.

These sacles are near to theory of dr.barkeshli who told for example quarter-tones in persiam music are just minor intervals + sy. Comma , but they are only two intervals in intervallic spectrum:

0: 1/1 0.000 unison, perfect prime

1: 27/25 133.238 large limma, BP small semitone

2: 243/200 337.148 acute minor third

3: 4/3 498.045 perfect fourth

4: 36/25 631.283 classic diminished fifth

5: 81/50 835.193 acute minor sixth

6: 729/400 1039.103 acute minor seventh

7: 2/1 1200.000 octave

These would be degrees 0, 9, 22, 33, 42, 55, 68 and 79 of 79 MOS 159-tET.

0: 1/1 C Dbb unison, perfect prime
1: 135.830 cents C# Db
2: 332.030 cents D# Eb
3: 498.045 cents F Gbb
4: 633.875 cents F# Gb
5: 837.785 cents G# Ab
6: 1033.985 cents A# Bb
7: 1200.000 cents C Dbb

0: 1/1 0.000 unison, perfect prime

1: 27/25 133.238 large limma, BP small semitone

2: 32/27 294.135 Pythagorean minor third

3: 4/3 498.045 perfect fourth

4: 3/2 701.955 perfect fifth

5: 128/81 792.180 Pythagorean minor sixth

6: 16/9 996.090 Pythagorean minor seventh

7: 2/1 1200.000 octave

These would be degrees 0, 9, 20, 33, 46, 52, 66 and 79 of 79 MOS 159-tET.

0: 1/1 C Dbb unison, perfect prime
1: 135.830 cents C# Db
2: 301.845 cents D# Eb
3: 498.045 cents F Gbb
4: 701.955 cents G Abb
5: 792.509 cents G# Ab
6: 1003.800 cents A# Bb
7: 1200.000 cents C Dbb

Cordially,

Ozan