Re-lurking

Hi all,

I've been flat out for the last six weeks or so, and so
I've missed all the doubtless exciting developments,
conversations - and most importantly, music! - on these
lists. My apologies to anyone who wrote to me during
that time; I'll try to catch up over this weekend, which
promises only rain, storms and hail outside.
Regards,
Yahya

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Esselamunaleykum brother Yahya! I've been wondering where you have been. I hope all is alright with you. The exciting news on my side of the world is, that we have been discussing high cardinality edos such as 140, 152, 188, 193 as possible universal solutions which comprise Maqam Music, and arguing that the concept of Key would possibly be a better term as compared to Ecclesiastical modes of Europe with their limited pre-tonal content.

Also, I've delivered a presentation yesterday during the first day of the Istanbul International Musicology Congress. Although it's in Turkish, one may download and scrutinize the contents from my website.

Cordially,
Ozan
----- Original Message -----
From: Yahya Abdal-Aziz
To: Tuning group at yahoo ; Tuning-Math
Sent: 07 Ekim 2005 Cuma 15:20
Subject: [tuning] Re-lurking

Hi all,

I've been flat out for the last six weeks or so, and so
I've missed all the doubtless exciting developments,
conversations - and most importantly, music! - on these
lists. My apologies to anyone who wrote to me during
that time; I'll try to catch up over this weekend, which
promises only rain, storms and hail outside.
Regards,
Yahya

Hi all,

On Fri, 7 Oct 2005, Ozan Yarman wrote:
>
> Esselamunaleykum brother Yahya!
wa `alaikum salam, brother Ozan.

> ... I've been wondering where
> you have been. I hope all is alright with you. The exciting news
> on my side of the world is, that we have been discussing high
> cardinality edos such as 140, 152, 188, 193 as possible universal
> solutions which comprise Maqam Music,

Any EDO seems, to me, foreign to the spirit of Arabic and early
Persian lute music, tho from what you write I understand it may
well suit the approach generally taken by Turkish performers.
Have you discovered an ideal EDO that approaches sensibly
close to the intonations of all the historic Turkish maqamat?

> ... and arguing that the
> concept of Key would possibly be a better term as compared
> to Ecclesiastical modes of Europe with their limited pre-tonal
> content.

I remember this from months ago; but at that time, both Klaus
Schmirler and I had settled on the term "mode" as describing
a phenomenon much more widespread than just the church
modes, yet quite distinct from the Western common-practice
period's notion of "key". I do hope you don't want to add the
meaning "maqam" to that term?

What Western "keys" and Eastern "maqamat" seem to have in
common with each other is this: use of a well-defined scale to
establish a definite tonality, and modulations to related
tonalities to emphasise that "tonic" tonality. Tho for the
latter, I have only your say-so :-) that it exists in Turkish
music, never having heard such a thing myself in Arabic or
Persian music. I would dearly like to hear some examples of
this from the Turkish classical repertoire, if you could be so
kind as to provide me with some links?

In your terms, I guess I would have to call all the classical
Arabic lute music that I've heard "pre-tonal", but it does
sound vaguely insulting, as tho one were describing a
"pre-literate" culture with consequent implications of
primitivism. Perhaps "non-tonal" would be a more neutral
term?

Although the church modes had the elements from which the
key system was eventually built, they were not organised
primarily around the tonality principle. They could not (in
theory) modulate, making excursions to ever more remote
keys in order to enhance the final return to the tonic key.

> Also, I've delivered a presentation yesterday during the first
> day of the Istanbul International Musicology Congress.

Excellent!

> Although it's in Turkish, one may download and scrutinize the
> contents from my website.

In English I hope! :-)

> Cordially,
> Ozan

Likewise!
Yahya

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Dear Yahya,
----- Original Message -----
From: Yahya Abdal-Aziz
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 12 Ekim 2005 Çarşamba 4:48
Subject: [tuning] Re: Re-lurking

> ... I've been wondering where
> you have been. I hope all is alright with you. The exciting news
> on my side of the world is, that we have been discussing high
> cardinality edos such as 140, 152, 188, 193 as possible universal > solutions which comprise Maqam Music,

Any EDO seems, to me, foreign to the spirit of Arabic and early
Persian lute music, tho from what you write I understand it may
well suit the approach generally taken by Turkish performers.
Have you discovered an ideal EDO that approaches sensibly
close to the intonations of all the historic Turkish maqamat?

You will have a hard time convincing the Arabs that what they perform is not based on 24-EQ then. In my opinion, certain high cardinality EDOs work reasonably well as approximations of JI. A 24-tET framework, at least in notation, seems sensible enough, though very crude for my tastes. 106-tET is the ideal resolution to explain all the theories on paper, 79 MOS 159-tET a convincingly accurate solution for all the Maqamat over the 12-tones per octave scheme.

> ... and arguing that the
> concept of Key would possibly be a better term as compared
> to Ecclesiastical modes of Europe with their limited pre-tonal
> content.

I remember this from months ago; but at that time, both Klaus
Schmirler and I had settled on the term "mode" as describing
a phenomenon much more widespread than just the church
modes, yet quite distinct from the Western common-practice
period's notion of "key". I do hope you don't want to add the
meaning "maqam" to that term?

I shall not be a party to the school that considers Maqamat as modal systems. The Maqamat are tonal systems per se and hence, each instance can be resolved to a particular key.

What Western "keys" and Eastern "maqamat" seem to have in
common with each other is this: use of a well-defined scale to
establish a definite tonality, and modulations to related
tonalities to emphasise that "tonic" tonality. Tho for the
latter, I have only your say-so :-) that it exists in Turkish
music, never having heard such a thing myself in Arabic or
Persian music. I would dearly like to hear some examples of
this from the Turkish classical repertoire, if you could be so
kind as to provide me with some links?

Haven't I already in my answer to Klaus? Oh yes, you appeared much later, here:

[oz]
So, you admit that the West is not ashamed of usurping the concept when we
have thousands of Maqam Music compositions that stack up thirds and exhibit
tonal characteristics in relation to the root positions of chords even in
monophony? Talk about cultural monopoly of concepts. Is it perhaps the
Western musical memory is much too short to discern such a thing?

Here, listen to some pieces for the sake of your edification, especially by
Tanburi Cemil, Ercumend Batanay and Othman Nuri Ozpekel at this address:

http://www.zeryab.com/Updates.htm

In your terms, I guess I would have to call all the classical
Arabic lute music that I've heard "pre-tonal", but it does
sound vaguely insulting, as tho one were describing a
"pre-literate" culture with consequent implications of
primitivism. Perhaps "non-tonal" would be a more neutral
term?

I bungled on that one obviously. Please refer to my recent post on this matter addressed to you. I hate the idea of cataloguizing cultures as `advanced` or `primitive` in a slap-up hierarchy.

Although the church modes had the elements from which the
key system was eventually built, they were not organised
primarily around the tonality principle. They could not (in
theory) modulate, making excursions to ever more remote
keys in order to enhance the final return to the tonic key.

The Maqams are organized around an esoteric tonality principle since at least three centuries, if not more.

> Also, I've delivered a presentation yesterday during the first
> day of the Istanbul International Musicology Congress.

Excellent!

> Although it's in Turkish, one may download and scrutinize the
> contents from my website.

In English I hope! :-)

For that, I have to prepare some articles.

> Cordially,
> Ozan

Likewise!
Yahya

Hi Ozan,

Which music should we listen to on this address?

http://www.zeryab.com/Updates.htm

The only music that works for me is Mu'azzaz Ersoy, but, and I hope I'm not being ignorant here, that sounds like pop music to me. Only the mp3s work for me. All the real audio files are completely silent in Real Player. I have the latest version for OSX. Maybe other people have had the same problem and thus not been very informed by this web page.

- Magnus Jonsson

Dear Magnus,
----- Original Message -----
From: Magnus Jonsson
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 14 Ekim 2005 Cuma 22:20
Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: Re-lurking

Hi Ozan,

Which music should we listen to on this address?

http://www.zeryab.com/Updates.htm

Take your pick!

The only music that works for me is Mu'azzaz Ersoy, but, and I hope I'm
not being ignorant here, that sounds like pop music to me.

Yep, it is pop indeed, but still, it is thought of as Maqam Music. Maybe the microtones in the Arabesque style are justification enough.

Only the mp3s
work for me. All the real audio files are completely silent in Real
Player. I have the latest version for OSX. Maybe other people have had the
same problem and thus not been very informed by this web page.

- Magnus Jonsson

I have little to say about streaming audio warfare.

Cordially,
Ozan

Hallo Ozan,

On Fri, 14 Oct 2005, you wrote:
> Dear Yahya,
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Yahya Abdal-Aziz
> To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: 12 Ekim 2005 �ar�amba 4:48
> Subject: [tuning] Re: Re-lurking
>
>
> > ... I've been wondering where
> > you have been. I hope all is alright with you. The exciting news
> > on my side of the world is, that we have been discussing high
> > cardinality edos such as 140, 152, 188, 193 as possible universal >
solutions which comprise Maqam Music,
>
> Any EDO seems, to me, foreign to the spirit of Arabic and early
> Persian lute music, tho from what you write I understand it may
> well suit the approach generally taken by Turkish performers.
> Have you discovered an ideal EDO that approaches sensibly
> close to the intonations of all the historic Turkish maqamat?
>
> You will have a hard time convincing the Arabs that what they perform is
not based on 24-EQ then. ...
But this is an historically recent aberration, adopted it seems more
for the purposes of pan-Arabism than for musical reasons.

> ... In my opinion, certain high cardinality EDOs work reasonably well as
approximations of JI. A 24-tET framework, at least in notation, seems
sensible enough, though very crude for my tastes. 106-tET is the ideal
resolution to explain all the theories on paper, 79 MOS 159-tET a
convincingly accurate solution for all the Maqamat over the 12-tones per
octave scheme.

Presumably 79 MOS 159-EDO is convincing in theory as well as in practice.

> > ... and arguing that the
> > concept of Key would possibly be a better term as compared
> > to Ecclesiastical modes of Europe with their limited pre-tonal
> > content.
>
> I remember this from months ago; but at that time, both Klaus
> Schmirler and I had settled on the term "mode" as describing
> a phenomenon much more widespread than just the church
> modes, yet quite distinct from the Western common-practice
> period's notion of "key". I do hope you don't want to add the
> meaning "maqam" to that term?
>
> I shall not be a party to the school that considers Maqamat as
> modal systems. ...

I understand that ...

> ... The Maqamat are tonal systems per se and hence, each
> instance can be resolved to a particular key.

... but not this. Does that mean that all the maqamat, that you
can express accurately enough with 79 MOS 159-EDO, have no
more than 12 tonal centres, that correspond to the 12 semitones
per octave given by a chromatic scale (where that must be tuned
necessarily to 12 of the 159 equal divisions of the octave)?

> What Western "keys" and Eastern "maqamat" seem to have in
> common with each other is this: use of a well-defined scale to
> establish a definite tonality, and modulations to related
> tonalities to emphasise that "tonic" tonality. Tho for the
> latter, I have only your say-so :-) that it exists in Turkish
> music, never having heard such a thing myself in Arabic or
> Persian music. I would dearly like to hear some examples of
> this from the Turkish classical repertoire, if you could be so
> kind as to provide me with some links?
>
> Haven't I already in my answer to Klaus? Oh yes, you appeared much later,
here:
>
> [oz]
... [snipt]
> Here, listen to some pieces for the sake of your edification, especially
by
> Tanburi Cemil, Ercumend Batanay and Othman Nuri Ozpekel at this address:
> http://www.zeryab.com/Updates.htm

Thank you! I've just listened to some pieces by Ercumend Batanay.
The RAM format is annoying, since it allows listening, but not file
saving for a later listen when offline, and only works well if your
connection is fast enough. Still, these were mono tracks at 16 kbps,
which seemed to play without noticeable hiccups.

Of the pieces I heard, I would have trouble identifying anything
distinctly non-modal. I'll have to listen again later to the other
artists you mentioned.

> In your terms, I guess I would have to call all the classical
> Arabic lute music that I've heard "pre-tonal", but it does
> sound vaguely insulting, as tho one were describing a
> "pre-literate" culture with consequent implications of
> primitivism. Perhaps "non-tonal" would be a more neutral
> term?
>
> I bungled on that one obviously. Please refer to my recent post on this
matter addressed to you. I hate the idea of cataloguizing cultures as
`advanced` or `primitive` in a slap-up hierarchy.
>
>
> Although the church modes had the elements from which the
> key system was eventually built, they were not organised
> primarily around the tonality principle. They could not (in
> theory) modulate, making excursions to ever more remote
> keys in order to enhance the final return to the tonic key.
>
> The Maqams are organized around an esoteric tonality principle since at
least three centuries, if not more.

A tonality principle - fine! But ... esoteric? I don't get it.

> > Also, I've delivered a presentation yesterday during the first
> > day of the Istanbul International Musicology Congress.
> Excellent!
>
> > Although it's in Turkish, one may download and scrutinize the
> > contents from my website.
> In English I hope! :-)
>
> For that, I have to prepare some articles.

That will be good.

Regards,
Yahya

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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
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Yahya,
----- Original Message -----
From: Yahya Abdal-Aziz
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 15 Ekim 2005 Cumartesi 18:24
Subject: [tuning] Re: Re-lurking

Hallo Ozan,

> You will have a hard time convincing the Arabs that what they perform is
not based on 24-EQ then. ...

But this is an historically recent aberration, adopted it seems more
for the purposes of pan-Arabism than for musical reasons.

Nationalism or ipso facto Pan-ethnicism is to blame for the decline of Oriental Art Music.

> ... In my opinion, certain high cardinality EDOs work reasonably well as
approximations of JI. A 24-tET framework, at least in notation, seems
sensible enough, though very crude for my tastes. 106-tET is the ideal
resolution to explain all the theories on paper, 79 MOS 159-tET a
convincingly accurate solution for all the Maqamat over the 12-tones per
octave scheme.

Presumably 79 MOS 159-EDO is convincing in theory as well as in practice.

It sure is! My modified Qanun which I acquired recently from Izmir is proof enough that this list is not just based on theoretical speculation.

> ... The Maqamat are tonal systems per se and hence, each
> instance can be resolved to a particular key.

... but not this. Does that mean that all the maqamat, that you
can express accurately enough with 79 MOS 159-EDO, have no
more than 12 tonal centres, that correspond to the 12 semitones
per octave given by a chromatic scale (where that must be tuned
necessarily to 12 of the 159 equal divisions of the octave)?

More or less so.

Thank you! I've just listened to some pieces by Ercumend Batanay.
The RAM format is annoying, since it allows listening, but not file
saving for a later listen when offline, and only works well if your
connection is fast enough. Still, these were mono tracks at 16 kbps,
which seemed to play without noticeable hiccups.

Of the pieces I heard, I would have trouble identifying anything
distinctly non-modal. I'll have to listen again later to the other
artists you mentioned.

You may be biased then. The music is clearly involves tonality IMHO.

> The Maqams are organized around an esoteric tonality principle since at
least three centuries, if not more.

A tonality principle - fine! But ... esoteric? I don't get it.

Esoteric, since I have been trying to explain for weeks without much success.

Cordially,
Ozan