Re: [tuning] all the threads

<< I wonder how Bach could compose with a keyboard
tuned to pythagorean
ratios.

what makes you think that he did not try or did/.>

I am convinced he DID experiment with tunings. The
First French Suite, for instance, sounds exemplarily
well in meantone (and it is playable on a C/E-c
short-octave instrument, which usually were meantone).
Michael

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If he did experiment as you say - which I do not doubt that he did - then he would have seen firsthand the futility of trying to tune to Pythagorean ratios for polyphonic music.
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Zapf
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 03 Ekim 2005 Pazartesi 7:30
Subject: Re: [tuning] all the threads

<< I wonder how Bach could compose with a keyboard
tuned to pythagorean
ratios.

what makes you think that he did not try or did/.>

I am convinced he DID experiment with tunings. The
First French Suite, for instance, sounds exemplarily
well in meantone (and it is playable on a C/E-c
short-octave instrument, which usually were meantone).
Michael

why do you think that Pythagorean ratios could not be used for polyphonic music?
Margo schulter is an example of someone doing just that without much problem.
actually it would seems that polyphonic music is capable in most tunings, it is harmonic music i think that will cause you trouble
>
>Message: 14 > Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 08:06:28 +0300
> From: "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@superonline.com>
>Subject: Re: all the threads
>
>If he did experiment as you say - which I do not doubt that he did - then he would have seen firsthand the futility of trying to tune to Pythagorean ratios for polyphonic music.
>
>
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

>> If he did experiment as you say - which I do not doubt that he
>> did - then he would have seen firsthand the futility of trying
>> to tune to Pythagorean ratios for polyphonic music.

> why do you think that Pythagorean ratios could not be used for
> polyphonic music?
> Margo schulter is an example of someone doing just that without
> much problem.

For sure polyphony was born under a Pythagorean roof. But
Bach's sort of polyphony just as surely requires sweeter
triads.

-Carl

You believe in polyphony without harmony? That's astounding.
----- Original Message -----
From: Kraig Grady
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 03 Ekim 2005 Pazartesi 20:04
Subject: [tuning] Re: all the threads

why do you think that Pythagorean ratios could not be used for
polyphonic music?
Margo schulter is an example of someone doing just that without much
problem.
actually it would seems that polyphonic music is capable in most
tunings, it is harmonic music i think that will cause you trouble

>
>Message: 14
> Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 08:06:28 +0300
> From: "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@superonline.com>
>Subject: Re: all the threads
>
>If he did experiment as you say - which I do not doubt that he did - then he would have seen firsthand the futility of trying to tune to Pythagorean ratios for polyphonic music.
>
>
>
>
>
>

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

Belief?
i didn't make history. nor do i have any influence over other music

>
>Message: 3 > Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 10:37:51 +0300
> From: "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@superonline.com>
>Subject: Re: Re: all the threads
>
>You believe in polyphony without harmony? That's astounding.
> >
> these?
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

You believe that history created polyphony without harmony? Astounding.
----- Original Message -----
From: Kraig Grady
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 04 Ekim 2005 Salı 18:32
Subject: [tuning] Re: Re: all the threads

Belief?
i didn't make history. nor do i have any influence over other music

> You believe that history created polyphony without harmony?
> Astounding.

I don't think he said that. He said polyphony arose in a
setting of Pythagorean intonation, which is correct.

-Carl

Pythagorean tuning is great for polyphonic music of the Medieval era,
such as Perotin. Here the only stable consonances are the ratios
within an odd limit of 3, and all other sonorities ultimately resolve
to those.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@s...> wrote:
> If he did experiment as you say - which I do not doubt that he did -
then he would have seen firsthand the futility of trying to tune to
Pythagorean ratios for polyphonic music.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Michael Zapf
> To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: 03 Ekim 2005 Pazartesi 7:30
> Subject: Re: [tuning] all the threads
>
>
>
> << I wonder how Bach could compose with a keyboard
> tuned to pythagorean
> ratios.
>
> what makes you think that he did not try or did/.>
>
> I am convinced he DID experiment with tunings. The
> First French Suite, for instance, sounds exemplarily
> well in meantone (and it is playable on a C/E-c
> short-octave instrument, which usually were meantone).
> Michael

Yes, I agree to that. I just do not agree that Bach could have composed his terrific music in Pythagorean tuning, that's all.
----- Original Message -----
From: Carl Lumma
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 04 Ekim 2005 Salı 21:59
Subject: [tuning] Re: all the threads

> You believe that history created polyphony without harmony?
> Astounding.

I don't think he said that. He said polyphony arose in a
setting of Pythagorean intonation, which is correct.

-Carl

I have no issues with Pythagorean polyphony Paul. It's just that I believe Bach's music would not be suitable to hear in Pythagorean intonation.

Cordially,
Ozan
----- Original Message -----
From: wallyesterpaulrus
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 04 Ekim 2005 Salı 22:53
Subject: [tuning] Re: all the threads

Pythagorean tuning is great for polyphonic music of the Medieval era,
such as Perotin. Here the only stable consonances are the ratios
within an odd limit of 3, and all other sonorities ultimately resolve
to those.

I believe in polyphony without harmony, as I've heard quite a lot of
it, mostly composed between the 12th and 16th centuries in Europe.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@s...> wrote:
> You believe in polyphony without harmony? That's astounding.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Kraig Grady
> To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: 03 Ekim 2005 Pazartesi 20:04
> Subject: [tuning] Re: all the threads
>
>
> why do you think that Pythagorean ratios could not be used for
> polyphonic music?
> Margo schulter is an example of someone doing just that without
much
> problem.
> actually it would seems that polyphonic music is capable in most
> tunings, it is harmonic music i think that will cause you trouble
>
>
> >
> >Message: 14
> > Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 08:06:28 +0300
> > From: "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@s...>
> >Subject: Re: all the threads
> >
> >If he did experiment as you say - which I do not doubt that he
did - then he would have seen firsthand the futility of trying to
tune to Pythagorean ratios for polyphonic music.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Kraig Grady
> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
> The Wandering Medicine Show
> KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los
Angeles

Agreed completely, Ozan!

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@s...> wrote:
> I have no issues with Pythagorean polyphony Paul. It's just that I
believe Bach's music would not be suitable to hear in Pythagorean
intonation.
>
> Cordially,
> Ozan
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: wallyesterpaulrus
> To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: 04 Ekim 2005 Salý 22:53
> Subject: [tuning] Re: all the threads
>
>
> Pythagorean tuning is great for polyphonic music of the Medieval
era,
> such as Perotin. Here the only stable consonances are the ratios
> within an odd limit of 3, and all other sonorities ultimately
resolve
> to those.

Finally some concordance! :)
----- Original Message -----
From: wallyesterpaulrus
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 05 Ekim 2005 Çarşamba 1:00
Subject: [tuning] Re: all the threads

Agreed completely, Ozan!

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@s...> wrote:
> I have no issues with Pythagorean polyphony Paul. It's just that I
believe Bach's music would not be suitable to hear in Pythagorean
intonation.
>
> Cordially,
> Ozan

You mean plainchant and organum music as composed by Leonin and Perotin? That might just as well be categorized as a specific attempt to ruin `harmony`, or else, implying a completely other variety. I opt for the latter of course. I hear an inherent "harmony" implied with this very music. I rest my case, I do not believe in polyphony without harmony. Take for instance "Alleluia Justus u palma" from the "Milan Treatise-Ad Organum Faciendum" written nearly a millenium ago. I catch glimpses of harmony there. But then again, what do I know?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_Cotto

----- Original Message -----
From: wallyesterpaulrus
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 04 Ekim 2005 Salı 23:55
Subject: [tuning] Re: all the threads

I believe in polyphony without harmony, as I've heard quite a lot of it, mostly composed between the 12th and 16th centuries in Europe.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@s...> wrote:
> You believe in polyphony without harmony? That's astounding.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Kraig Grady
> To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: 03 Ekim 2005 Pazartesi 20:04
> Subject: [tuning] Re: all the threads
>
>
> why do you think that Pythagorean ratios could not be used for
> polyphonic music?
> Margo schulter is an example of someone doing just that without
much
> problem.
> actually it would seems that polyphonic music is capable in most
> tunings, it is harmonic music i think that will cause you trouble
>
>
> >
> >Message: 14
> > Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 08:06:28 +0300
> > From: "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@s...>
> >Subject: Re: all the threads
> >
> >If he did experiment as you say - which I do not doubt that he
did - then he would have seen firsthand the futility of trying to
tune to Pythagorean ratios for polyphonic music.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Kraig Grady
> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
> The Wandering Medicine Show
> KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los
Angeles

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--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus"
<wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:
> I believe in polyphony without harmony, as I've heard quite a lot of
> it, mostly composed between the 12th and 16th centuries in Europe.

Don't suppose you have any links to audio files for that?
Thanks
Justin.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@s...> wrote:

> You mean plainchant and organum music as composed by Leonin and
>Perotin?

Plainchant no, polyphony yes, extending through Palestrina, Victoria,
and beyond.