FW: : Re: SF Bay Area JI piano tuner (Carl Lumma?)

I'm reposting David Canright's off-list response to this topic (with his
permission). Thanks to Kraig for initiating that communication. David also
said feel free to cc him.

-Kurt

----------
From: "Canright, David USA" <dcanright@nps.edu>
Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 14:43:15 -0700
To: <kraiggrady@anaphoria.com>
Cc: <kkb@breathsense.com>
Subject: RE: : Re: SF Bay Area JI piano tuner (Carl Lumma?)

Kraig,
Thanks for cc'ing me.
For those concerned, the "Helix of Bigler" is actually the same as the
13-limit scale I published in
"On Piano Retuning" in 1/1, the Journal of the Just Intonation Network,
Volume 1, Number 4, p.10 (1985).
http://www.redshift.com/~dcanright/piano/index.htm
though Bigler's version transposes mine by a 3/2 (his in C would be mine
in G)
However, it is entirely possible that this scale was discovered by
someone else earlier, and clear that others have discovered it
indpendently since. So IMHO we should welcome all (re-)discoveries and
not worry too much about "whose" scale it is...

stay tuned!
David

-----Original Message-----
From: Kraig Grady [mailto:kraiggrady@anaphoria.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 11:46
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Subject: : Re: SF Bay Area JI piano tuner (Carl Lumma?)

This is quite a good scale too . it is amazing it was over looked
although i am not sure exactly of all the ones Canwright did. It is a
helix. like these http://anaphoria.com/hel.PDF so it might be called
Bigler's Helix or Helix of Bigler. or of Canwright in the space above

Message: 19
Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 19:42:22 -0700
From: Kurt Bigler <kkb@breathsense.com>
Subject: Re: Re: SF Bay Area JI piano tuner (Carl Lumma?)

on 9/19/05 12:34 PM, wallyesterpaulrus <wallyesterpaulrus@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>> The original poster made mention of chords with primes as high as 13
>> on the harmonic entropy list -- perhaps one of the 12-note 13-limit
>> tunings (Dave Canright's or others) might be best for him.
>
>

Personally I like the following scale (don't know if it has a name)
which has the 11 and 13 in two keys (in this case C and G):

>>C# D D# E F F# G G# A A# B
>>
>>33/32 9/8 39/32 5/4 21/16 11/8 3/2 13/8 27/16 7/4 15/8
>
>

I like this better than Canright's scale, which, if I've got it right,
only has the 11-limit in one key rather than two.

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/> The
Wandering Medicine Show KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed
8-9 pm Los Angeles

on 9/26/05 6:53 PM, Kurt Bigler <kkb@breathsense.com> wrote:

> I'm reposting David Canright's off-list response to this topic (with his
> permission). Thanks to Kraig for initiating that communication. David also
> said feel free to cc him.
>
> -Kurt
>
>
> ----------
> From: "Canright, David USA" <dcanright@nps.edu>
> Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 14:43:15 -0700
> To: <kraiggrady@anaphoria.com>
> Cc: <kkb@breathsense.com>
> Subject: RE: : Re: SF Bay Area JI piano tuner (Carl Lumma?)
>
> Kraig,
> Thanks for cc'ing me.
> For those concerned, the "Helix of Bigler" is actually the same as the
> 13-limit scale I published in
> "On Piano Retuning" in 1/1, the Journal of the Just Intonation Network,
> Volume 1, Number 4, p.10 (1985).
> http://www.redshift.com/~dcanright/piano/index.htm
> though Bigler's version transposes mine by a 3/2 (his in C would be mine
> in G)

Yes, this transposition has the nice side effect of putting the 11 and 13
notes on the black keys, making a nice pattern. This makes it really easy
to remember the scale, which when also altered for the lower register as I
described comes in handy by making the overall amount to remember during
improvisation somewhat bearable. ;)

I put up (on the web) a little mp3 of an improv I did in this scale, but I
had never posted the url because I never set up the mp3 tags and I never
edited out the clicks at the beginning, etc. But since over 7 months have
passed and I still haven't done any of that, I think I'm going to post it
anyway even though Carl will probably shoot me for it:

http://k.breathsense.com/music/2_13_05_am_Harpsichord.mp3

This demonstrates the scale pretty well, plus some additional modulations
afforded by replacing the 11 and 13 notes in the bass with 5-limit notes,
plus also the unique tonal capabilities of this Neupert harpsichord.

The recording was made using an Edirol R-1 (internal mics) hanging from the
harpsichord cover, fairly close over the jacks, which accounts for the
bit-too-excessive clicking throughout. The close recording was somewhat
needed because of how far I voiced down the harpsichord to get the sound I
wanted, including making some dynamics available even without moving the
slide levers.

Maybe finally posting the url will motivate me to clean up the recording and
tag it correctly. ;)

-Kurt

> However, it is entirely possible that this scale was discovered by
> someone else earlier, and clear that others have discovered it
> indpendently since. So IMHO we should welcome all (re-)discoveries and
> not worry too much about "whose" scale it is...
>
> stay tuned!
> David
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kraig Grady [mailto:kraiggrady@anaphoria.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 11:46
> To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: : Re: SF Bay Area JI piano tuner (Carl Lumma?)
>
>
>
>
> This is quite a good scale too . it is amazing it was over looked
> although i am not sure exactly of all the ones Canwright did. It is a
> helix. like these http://anaphoria.com/hel.PDF so it might be called
> Bigler's Helix or Helix of Bigler. or of Canwright in the space above
>
>
> Message: 19
> Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 19:42:22 -0700
> From: Kurt Bigler <kkb@breathsense.com>
> Subject: Re: Re: SF Bay Area JI piano tuner (Carl Lumma?)
>
> on 9/19/05 12:34 PM, wallyesterpaulrus <wallyesterpaulrus@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>>> The original poster made mention of chords with primes as high as 13
>>> on the harmonic entropy list -- perhaps one of the 12-note 13-limit
>>> tunings (Dave Canright's or others) might be best for him.
>>
>>
>
> Personally I like the following scale (don't know if it has a name)
> which has the 11 and 13 in two keys (in this case C and G):
>
>
>>> C# D D# E F F# G G# A A# B
>>>
>>> 33/32 9/8 39/32 5/4 21/16 11/8 3/2 13/8 27/16 7/4 15/8
>>
>>
>
> I like this better than Canright's scale, which, if I've got it right,
> only has the 11-limit in one key rather than two.

I think it's safe to say that this scale has been discovered and
rediscovered innumerable times. I first tried it 'way back in 1964
in this form:

1/1 13/12 9/8 7/6 5/4 4/3 11/8 3/2 13/8 5/3 7/4 11/6 2/1

In 1975 I mentioned it in a letter to Jonathan Glasier. Later that
same year, Jonathan introduced me to Prent Rodgers when I was in San
Diego, and we had occasion to discuss this scale. As a result of
that conversation Prent said that he would use it on his home-made
kalimba.

Another scale that is less obvious than the above is:

1/1 15/14 9/8 15/13 5/4 15/11 11/8 3/2 13/8 5/3 7/4 15/8
2/1

This gives you 16 harmonics starting on 1/1 and 16 subharmonics
starting on 15/8.

--George

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Kurt Bigler <kkb@b...> wrote:
> I'm reposting David Canright's off-list response to this topic
(with his
> permission). Thanks to Kraig for initiating that communication.
David also
> said feel free to cc him.
>
> -Kurt
>
> ----------
> From: "Canright, David USA" <dcanright@n...>
> Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 14:43:15 -0700
> To: <kraiggrady@a...>
> Cc: <kkb@b...>
> Subject: RE: : Re: SF Bay Area JI piano tuner (Carl Lumma?)
>
> Kraig,
> Thanks for cc'ing me.
> For those concerned, the "Helix of Bigler" is actually the same as
the
> 13-limit scale I published in
> "On Piano Retuning" in 1/1, the Journal of the Just Intonation
Network,
> Volume 1, Number 4, p.10 (1985).
> http://www.redshift.com/~dcanright/piano/index.htm
> though Bigler's version transposes mine by a 3/2 (his in C would be
mine
> in G)
> However, it is entirely possible that this scale was discovered by
> someone else earlier, and clear that others have discovered it
> indpendently since. So IMHO we should welcome all (re-)discoveries
and
> not worry too much about "whose" scale it is...
>
> stay tuned!
> David
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kraig Grady [mailto:kraiggrady@a...]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 11:46
> To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: : Re: SF Bay Area JI piano tuner (Carl Lumma?)
>
> This is quite a good scale too . it is amazing it was over looked
> although i am not sure exactly of all the ones Canwright did. It
is a
> helix. like these http://anaphoria.com/hel.PDF so it might be
called
> Bigler's Helix or Helix of Bigler. or of Canwright in the space
above
>
>
> Message: 19
> Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 19:42:22 -0700
> From: Kurt Bigler <kkb@b...>
> Subject: Re: Re: SF Bay Area JI piano tuner (Carl Lumma?)
>
> on 9/19/05 12:34 PM, wallyesterpaulrus <wallyesterpaulrus@y...>
> wrote:
>
> >> The original poster made mention of chords with primes as high
as 13
> >> on the harmonic entropy list -- perhaps one of the 12-note 13-
limit
> >> tunings (Dave Canright's or others) might be best for him.
>
> Personally I like the following scale (don't know if it has a name)
> which has the 11 and 13 in two keys (in this case C and G):
>
> >>C# D D# E F F# G G# A A# B
> >>
> >>33/32 9/8 39/32 5/4 21/16 11/8 3/2 13/8 27/16 7/4 15/8
>
> I like this better than Canright's scale, which, if I've got it
right,
> only has the 11-limit in one key rather than two.
>
> --
> Kraig Grady
> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The
> Wandering Medicine Show KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9
FM Wed
> 8-9 pm Los Angeles

Kurt wrote...
> I put up (on the web) a little mp3 of an improv I did in this
> scale, but I had never posted the url because I never set up the
> mp3 tags and I never edited out the clicks at the beginning, etc.
> But since over 7 months have passed and I still haven't done any
> of that, I think I'm going to post it anyway even though Carl
> will probably shoot me for it:
>
> http://k.breathsense.com/music/2_13_05_am_Harpsichord.mp3

More like I was going to shoot you for _not_ posting it...

-Carl

> Another scale that is less obvious than the above is:
>
> 15/14
> 9/8
> 15/13
> 5/4
> 15/11
> 11/8
> 3/2
> 13/8
> 5/3
> 7/4
> 15/8
> 2/1
>
> This gives you 16 harmonics starting on 1/1 and 16 subharmonics
> starting on 15/8.

Interesting, George!

-Carl