Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning enharmonic tonalities

If I may be so bold as to comment on that, I think, Lorenzo, that a 12-tone `well-temperament` or `temperament ordinaire` which closes the cycle of fifths in 12 steps makes no distinction between enharmonic equivalences such as those you mentioned (C#-Db). If I understand you correctly, for the distinction, you obviously need a system like 31-tET, 43-tET, 53-tET...

Perhaps the difference is best illustrated by 55-tET as suggested by George Philip Telemann. I'm sure Monz will provide the necessary links for that.

Cordially,
Ozan

----- Original Message -----
From: Lorenzo Frizzera
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 05 Eylül 2005 Pazartesi 11:05
Subject: [tuning] enharmonic tonalities

Hi.

What are enharmonic tonalities (C#, Cb)?
In what occasion I have to write a song in C# instead of Db?
I've never understood this.

Lorenzo

🔗Lorenzo Frizzera <lorenzo.frizzera@cdmrovereto.it>

Sorry, I forgotten to say that I'm considering 12-et only.
I don't understand why in every book of musical theory there is a part relative to key signature of tonalities such as C# or Cb.

If I well remember the first part of Firebird of stravinskji is written in Cb. Why not B?

Lorenzo
----- Original Message -----
From: Ozan Yarman
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, September 05, 2005 11:31 AM
Subject: Re: [tuning] enharmonic tonalities

Perhaps the difference is best illustrated by 55-tET as suggested by George Philip Telemann. I'm sure Monz will provide the necessary links for that.

Cordially,
Ozan

----- Original Message -----
From: Lorenzo Frizzera
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 05 Eylül 2005 Pazartesi 11:05
Subject: [tuning] enharmonic tonalities

Hi.

What are enharmonic tonalities (C#, Cb)?
In what occasion I have to write a song in C# instead of Db?
I've never understood this.

Lorenzo

You can configure your subscription by sending an empty email to one
of these addresses (from the address at which you receive the list):
tuning-subscribe@yahoogroups.com - join the tuning group.
tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com - leave the group.
tuning-nomail@yahoogroups.com - turn off mail from the group.
tuning-digest@yahoogroups.com - set group to send daily digests.
tuning-normal@yahoogroups.com - set group to send individual emails.
tuning-help@yahoogroups.com - receive general help information.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

a.. Visit your group "tuning" on the web.

b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

🔗Tom Dent <stringph@gmail.com>

Bach wrote preludes and fugues in C sharp major and F sharp major...
Schubert wrote in G flat major and Chopin in D flat major.

On the same keyboard these enharmonic equivalents in theory should
sound the same, but they may have psychologically different effects on
the player and therefore on how the piece is performed.

Beethoven wrote a funeral march in A flat minor, I think, the number
of flats in the signature is 7. The number of flats is almost enough
to indicate the correct manner of performance. If it was written in G
sharp minor (5 sharps) the performer may think about it differently.

Perhaps an equally important thing is what chair you sit on in front
of the piano. It's very difficult to see how it could make a
difference to the sound, but sometimes it does, because the player is
part of the sound...

~~~T~~~

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Lorenzo Frizzera"
<lorenzo.frizzera@c...> wrote:
> Sorry, I forgotten to say that I'm considering 12-et only.
> I don't understand why in every book of musical theory there is a
part relative to key signature of tonalities such as C# or Cb.
>
> If I well remember the first part of Firebird of stravinskji is
written in Cb. Why not B?
>
> Lorenzo
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Ozan Yarman
> To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, September 05, 2005 11:31 AM
> Subject: Re: [tuning] enharmonic tonalities
>
>
> If I may be so bold as to comment on that, I think, Lorenzo, that
a 12-tone `well-temperament` or `temperament ordinaire` which closes
the cycle of fifths in 12 steps makes no distinction between
enharmonic equivalences such as those you mentioned (C#-Db). If I
understand you correctly, for the distinction, you obviously need a
system like 31-tET, 43-tET, 53-tET...
>
> Perhaps the difference is best illustrated by 55-tET as suggested
by George Philip Telemann. I'm sure Monz will provide the necessary
links for that.
>
> Cordially,
> Ozan
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Lorenzo Frizzera
> To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: 05 Eylül 2005 Pazartesi 11:05
> Subject: [tuning] enharmonic tonalities
>
>
> Hi.
>
> What are enharmonic tonalities (C#, Cb)?
> In what occasion I have to write a song in C# instead of Db?
> I've never understood this.
>
> Lorenzo
>
>
> You can configure your subscription by sending an empty email to one
> of these addresses (from the address at which you receive the list):
> tuning-subscribe@yahoogroups.com - join the tuning group.
> tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com - leave the group.
> tuning-nomail@yahoogroups.com - turn off mail from the group.
> tuning-digest@yahoogroups.com - set group to send daily digests.
> tuning-normal@yahoogroups.com - set group to send individual
emails.
> tuning-help@yahoogroups.com - receive general help information.
>
>
>
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
> a.. Visit your group "tuning" on the web.
>
> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
of Service.
>
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@svpal.org>

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@superonline.com>

That seems to be a more convincing argument as compared to esoteric assumptions on key.

----- Original Message -----
From: Gene Ward Smith
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 05 Eylül 2005 Pazartesi 22:57
Subject: [tuning] Re: enharmonic tonalities

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Dent" <stringph@g...> wrote:
>
> Bach wrote preludes and fugues in C sharp major and F sharp major...
> Schubert wrote in G flat major and Chopin in D flat major.
>
> On the same keyboard these enharmonic equivalents in theory should
> sound the same, but they may have psychologically different effects on
> the player and therefore on how the piece is performed.

There can be more to it than that. A piece in a very sharp key is more
likely to modulate flat, and in a very flat key to go sharp.

🔗monz <monz@tonalsoft.com>

Hi Ozan and Lorenzo,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@s...> wrote:

> If I may be so bold as to comment on that, I think,
> Lorenzo, that a 12-tone `well-temperament` or
> `temperament ordinaire` which closes the cycle of fifths
> in 12 steps makes no distinction between
> enharmonic equivalences such as those you mentioned (C#-Db).
> If I understand you correctly, for the distinction,
> you obviously need a system like 31-tET, 43-tET, 53-tET...
>
> Perhaps the difference is best illustrated by 55-tET
> as suggested by George Philip Telemann. I'm sure Monz
> will provide the necessary links for that.

http://sonic-arts.org/monzo/55edo/55edo.htm

(a page which still needs a lot of editing and correcting,
which i'll get to someday ... so _caveat lector_ ...)

-monz
http://tonalsoft.com
Tonescape microtonal music software

🔗Tom Dent <stringph@gmail.com>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Dent" <stringph@g...> wrote:
> >
> > Bach wrote preludes and fugues in C sharp major and F sharp major...
> > Schubert wrote in G flat major and Chopin in D flat major.
> >
> > On the same keyboard these enharmonic equivalents in theory should
> > sound the same, but they may have psychologically different effects on
> > the player and therefore on how the piece is performed.
>
> There can be more to it than that. A piece in a very sharp key is more
> likely to modulate flat, and in a very flat key to go sharp.

Bach's C sharp major fugue modulates to E sharp minor at one point:
eight sharps, with an A double sharp thrown in too.

Schubert's G flat major Impromptu modulates to C flat minor near the
end, notated as B minor; and then to A double flat minor, notated as G
minor. The return to G flat major occurs in a quite orthodox manner
via a seventh chord on E double flat.

In these pieces, Bach and Schubert go exactly opposite to the supposed
'rule'. More examples are needed.

What happens to tonality within the piece is entirely up to the
personality of the composer.

~~~T~~~