Re: [tuning] Ibn Sina’s mujannab

Dear Michael,

The Mujannab and Tanini intervals in Maqam Music treatises cannot be rightfully portrayed by a 3-limit linear system, especially since the mujannab can mean any just interval between 10:9 and 16:15 while the tanini can be both the major whole tone and the augmented second.

The difference between the Segah and Kurdi maqams arise from the fact that Segah starts with:

(13/11) 5/4 4/3 3/2 5/3 15/8 2/1

and Kurdi starts with:

9/8 19/16 4/3 3/2 19/12 57/32 2/1

However Kurdi and Segah pitches vary a lot during the exposition and development and recapitulation, affecting also the fourths and the fifths.

Cordially,
Ozan

----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Zapf
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com ; ney_lovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 28 Ağustos 2005 Pazar 8:59
Subject: [tuning] Ibn Sina’s mujannab

On the Oud, the mujannab is the first semitone fret
above the open string. Henry George Farmer in “The
Music of Islam” states that Ibn Sina does not “admit
the ‘anterior’ fret at 90 cents, but furnishes the
just semitone of 112 cents in its place”.
Unfortunately, throughout this article, Farmer does
not state ratios, but cents only. 112 cents would
imply a ratio of 16/15, but I do not understand the
rationale behind this ratio.
This mujannab second is important, because several
makams require it, and good Ney players will treat it
ever so differently. Theoretically, both the Kurdi and
Segah makam start with the same interval, but the good
players will widen the Segah minor second a little bit
more than the Kurdi second. If my ears are worth
anything than we are talking differences of less than
a comma, but they are audible, and emotionally very
effective.
I checked Cris Forster’s website and Dave Benson’s
paper, but they talk about fourths, fifths, major and
minor thirds, but not about minor seconds. As I am
only beginning to work myself into intonation
questions, I don’t understand why Farmer uses the term
“just intonation” for those 112 cents. Can anybody
explain it to me?
Thank you,
Michael

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Thanks, Cris and Ozan for your replies. I have another
question with Farmer's Ibn Sina table, and that is the
Zalzal wusta. The wusta is a blue third first
introduced by Zalzal in the 8th century, and the
traditional value is 355 cents or 27/22. Farmer states
that Ibn Sina put the Zalzal wusta at 343 cents, again
without explaining ratios. The only ratio which I
found that would approximate 343 cents is 39/32, but
again I completely fail to see the rationale behind
it, and I would like to know whether Farmer is quoting
correctly. I will try to get a photocopy of the German
dissertation which Cris mentioned, but that will take
some time to accomplish.
Thanks,
Michael

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Dear Michael, Cris has done a good job of translating the material to English at his website:

http://www.chrysalis-foundation.org/Al-Farabi's_'Uds.htm

39/22 is the 39th harmonic, or the Zalzal Wusta of Ibn Sina. 128/105 (septimal neutral third) is perhaps closer to 343 cents and thus equally valid.

Cordially,
Ozan

----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Zapf
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 29 Ağustos 2005 Pazartesi 10:54
Subject: Re: [tuning] Ibn Sina’s mujannab

Thanks, Cris and Ozan for your replies. I have another
question with Farmer's Ibn Sina table, and that is the
Zalzal wusta. The wusta is a blue third first
introduced by Zalzal in the 8th century, and the
traditional value is 355 cents or 27/22. Farmer states
that Ibn Sina put the Zalzal wusta at 343 cents, again
without explaining ratios. The only ratio which I
found that would approximate 343 cents is 39/32, but
again I completely fail to see the rationale behind
it, and I would like to know whether Farmer is quoting
correctly. I will try to get a photocopy of the German
dissertation which Cris mentioned, but that will take
some time to accomplish.
Thanks,
Michael

I should add to this that 39/32 is 13/12 away from 9/8, and thus vindicates my observation that Maqam Music indeed does use frequently the 13 and 11 limit intervals.

Ozan

----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Zapf
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 29 Ağustos 2005 Pazartesi 10:54
Subject: Re: [tuning] Ibn Sina’s mujannab

Thanks, Cris and Ozan for your replies. I have another
question with Farmer's Ibn Sina table, and that is the
Zalzal wusta. The wusta is a blue third first
introduced by Zalzal in the 8th century, and the
traditional value is 355 cents or 27/22. Farmer states
that Ibn Sina put the Zalzal wusta at 343 cents, again
without explaining ratios. The only ratio which I
found that would approximate 343 cents is 39/32, but
again I completely fail to see the rationale behind
it, and I would like to know whether Farmer is quoting
correctly. I will try to get a photocopy of the German
dissertation which Cris mentioned, but that will take
some time to accomplish.
Thanks,
Michael

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<I should add to this that 39/32 is 13/12 away from
9/8, and thus vindicates my observation that Maqam
Music indeed does use frequently the 13 and 11 limit
intervals.>

Thanks Ozan for your enlightening reply. The more I
work myself into these makams, the more excited I get
about discovering the immense emotional impacts of
minor intonation shifts. Having been a keyboarder by
profession for most of my life, I only now discover
what you can do with an open-ended piece of reed.....
Michael

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Dear Michael, you are most welcome! You should also check out the Ney Diagram I prepared in this address:

http://www.ozanyarman.com/anonymous/

The file is named Ney Perdeleri.jpg. It took me a great deal of work to translate the Abdulbaki Nasir Dede Pitches into staff notation according to the classical rules of Key Transposition. Notational examples are contained in my yet unfinished study in Turkish entitled: "Tedkid ve Tahkik üzerine Tedkik ve Tahkik" found in the same address. The Ney is, without a doubt, a transposing instrument like the Clarinets and it's pitch-finger position relationship cannot be expressed otherwise in notation. Hence, the Arab notation is pretty much correct while the Yekta, Arel-Ezgi, Tore-Karadeniz notations are flawed.

Cordially,
Ozan

----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Zapf
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 29 Ağustos 2005 Pazartesi 14:21
Subject: Re: [tuning] Ibn Sina’s mujannab

<I should add to this that 39/32 is 13/12 away from
9/8, and thus vindicates my observation that Maqam
Music indeed does use frequently the 13 and 11 limit
intervals.>

Thanks Ozan for your enlightening reply. The more I
work myself into these makams, the more excited I get
about discovering the immense emotional impacts of
minor intonation shifts. Having been a keyboarder by
profession for most of my life, I only now discover
what you can do with an open-ended piece of reed.....
Michael

Dear Michael,

Here are the eight ratios on the Bamm (the lowest string) of Ibn
Sina's `ud:

Open: 1/1

Fret 1: 273/256

Fret 2: 13/12

Fret 3: 9/8

Fret 4: 32/27

Fret 5: 39/32

Fret 6: 81/64

Fret 7: 4/3

Farmer's English translation of Ibn Sina's `ud tuning description
appears in:

Farmer, H.G. (1978). _Studies in Oriental Musical Instruments,
First and Second Series_. Longwood Press Ltd., Tortola, British
Virgin Islands

Sincerely,

Cris Forster, Music Director
www.Chrysalis-Foundation.org

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Michael Zapf <zapfzapfzapf@y...>
wrote:
> Thanks, Cris and Ozan for your replies. I have another
> question with Farmer's Ibn Sina table, and that is the
> Zalzal wusta. The wusta is a blue third first
> introduced by Zalzal in the 8th century, and the
> traditional value is 355 cents or 27/22. Farmer states
> that Ibn Sina put the Zalzal wusta at 343 cents, again
> without explaining ratios. The only ratio which I
> found that would approximate 343 cents is 39/32, but
> again I completely fail to see the rationale behind
> it, and I would like to know whether Farmer is quoting
> correctly. I will try to get a photocopy of the German
> dissertation which Cris mentioned, but that will take
> some time to accomplish.
> Thanks,
> Michael
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all
new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com

Thanks again to Cris for the ratios and to Ozan for
his paper preview. My questions arose from my current
work of putting all the classical Oud and Pandora
frettings into spreadsheets, and then translate the
results into 53 comma settings, in order to be able to
understand why the Ney is constructed as it is. Only
of course then to deviate from all this by bending the
notes as they come, but I want to understand why and
what I am bending for what purpose. And therefore,
although in Turkish, Ozan's tables are a quantum leap
for me, as they are self-explanatory.
Michael

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Dear Michael, I am glad to be able to help you in your quest for understanding the subtle art of Maqam Music and its intonational laws.

However, I am concerned that 53-tET is just too bland a resolution (with the wrong notational scheme) to explain the pitches used in Maqam Music. The lowest cardinality one can choose is 106-tET, with a very awkward possibility of completing a 12-tone cycle by reverting to 2 fifths flattened by `half a comma` in order to map the Rast Maqam to the white keys tuned to:

1 9/8 5/4 4/3 3/2 27/16 15/8 2

106 is also best for summing up the entirety of 20th century Turkish theories in one complete system with a maximum error of less than 1 cents.

I have myself chosen to implement on my Qanun is 79 MOS from practically 159-tET. The purpose of this system is to achieve 3 tolerable fifths to approximate the correct JI intervals:

694 cents
702 cents
709 cents

And thus achieve the freedom of freely interpreting pitches/enharmonical tones without destroying the functional cycle of fifths.

Another possibility is a dynamic switch between 53-tET and 43-tET, which I do not like or prefer.

Cordially,
Ozan

----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Zapf
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 29 Ağustos 2005 Pazartesi 17:00
Subject: Re: [tuning] Ibn Sina’s mujannab

Thanks again to Cris for the ratios and to Ozan for
his paper preview. My questions arose from my current
work of putting all the classical Oud and Pandora
frettings into spreadsheets, and then translate the
results into 53 comma settings, in order to be able to
understand why the Ney is constructed as it is. Only
of course then to deviate from all this by bending the
notes as they come, but I want to understand why and
what I am bending for what purpose. And therefore,
although in Turkish, Ozan's tables are a quantum leap
for me, as they are self-explanatory.
Michael

___________________________________________________________
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Ozan Yarman wrote:
< I am concerned that 53-tET is just too bland a
resolution (with the wrong notational scheme) to
explain the pitches used in Maqam Music.>

From listening and playing I know that half-commas are
important. But I leave that for later, because I am
not yet fully versed in 53-tET - all my reading so far
is catching up with you people. I can see your point
about Arel-Ezgi, but it will take a monumental effort
to change people's conditioning, poor Mehmet Y�cel
would have to ask somebody to rewrite his entire sheet
music archives. A new notational system will only be
accepted if people truly believe the old one cannot
describe what they want it to describe. Notational
systems of any sort are short-hand and leave things
unsaid which do exist in the minds of people, however.
But if the Arab notation makes the understanding
easier by saying more about the left out items, then
it is worthwile.
Michael,
who still uses the wrong old Koechel numbers for
Mozart like everybody else....

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Dear Michael,

I am not so certain that it should take a monumental effort in convincing people to agree to the right didactic methodology. If the stubborn elders and their underlings resist, then we need only wait them to perish for the ripe generation to accept the facts openly.

From the way things are going, Maqam Music education has degraded itself these past decades so much so that nothing at all makes sense anymore to its pupils. The minds of the students of the traditional culture are clogged with the artefacts of the last century. The number of practiced maqams and their scale structures have been simplified to the extent of sacrificing grace and subtlety. Add to this the aggravation resulting from a lack of proper-historically consistent terminology, it is understandable that most people are not even aware how the genre known as Turkish Maqam Music came to be.

Hopefully, with the passing away of the seniors conditioned by the AEU system, the path is now paved for the much-anticipated reform and a return to our true historical roots without any references to an ideological propaganda (nationalism).

Our notayaz group has been actively pursuing this matter since its foundation the past year and a half. The repertory is in shambles. Nothing is written with regard to publishing rules. No editions exist, music scores are childishly prepared. Everything is sketchy, amatuerish and flawed. All must be prepared once more with the right instrumentation in mind.

I have diligently fought against all the outrageous notions concerning the wrong usage of the staff notation. To me, limma-alterations in a 53-tET context is an intolerable violation of an uninterrupted cycle of fifths, and I'm sure George Secor and others will agree with me here.

Thus, I find the Arab notation to be much more consistent, although I dislike their abuse of the concept of Key Transposition which should not be practiced by such instruments as the Oud, Tanbur and Violin since the pitch-finger mapping for these instruments cannot be linear in every degree of transposition.

We need as little symbols as possible in defining the complexity of the Maqam World and we need to utilize the ones we already know in an admissible fashion.

Cordially,
Ozan

----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Zapf
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 29 Ağustos 2005 Pazartesi 19:25
Subject: Re: [tuning] Ibn Sina’s mujannab

Ozan Yarman wrote:
< I am concerned that 53-tET is just too bland a
resolution (with the wrong notational scheme) to
explain the pitches used in Maqam Music.>

>From listening and playing I know that half-commas are
important. But I leave that for later, because I am
not yet fully versed in 53-tET - all my reading so far
is catching up with you people. I can see your point
about Arel-Ezgi, but it will take a monumental effort
to change people's conditioning, poor Mehmet Yücel
would have to ask somebody to rewrite his entire sheet
music archives. A new notational system will only be
accepted if people truly believe the old one cannot
describe what they want it to describe. Notational
systems of any sort are short-hand and leave things
unsaid which do exist in the minds of people, however.
But if the Arab notation makes the understanding
easier by saying more about the left out items, then
it is worthwile.
Michael,
who still uses the wrong old Koechel numbers for
Mozart like everybody else....

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@s...> wrote:
> I should add to this that 39/32 is 13/12 away from 9/8, and thus
vindicates my observation that Maqam Music indeed does use frequently
the 13 and 11 limit intervals.

Unless it's just fond of neutral thirds.