RE: New Notation Practice for Beats of Unusual Length

Gordon Rumson wrote:
> New Notation Practice for Beats of Unusual Length
>
> Greetings,
>
> The question of notating strange meters etc came up via Cowell
> and I thought that the math of the issue might interest those with
> math skills (a few seem to hang around:))
>
> Please see:
>
> http://www3.telus.net/HansenSmythe/placenotation.html
>
> By Steve Hansen Smythe
>
> A theory and new notation.
>
> Main page at:
>
> http://www3.telus.net/HansenSmythe/
>
> Again, sorry for the ot....but I think it important...

Hi Gordon!

I personally don't find it _very_ off-topic; being intellectually
attracted to the notion of making art from very deliberately
limited resources, I've tried at times to use traditional fugal
techniques, serial techniques etc, including "translating" a note
row into a metre and vice versa. For any remaining "total
serialists" in the world (are there any?), I can only see new
tonal and metrical resources as being quite liberating - there
has to be only SO much one can do with 12 tones and traditional
2x3 metres in a given time span.

Stephen's proposal for notation is ingenious and simple. With
just one new symbol - the dash - he makes it possible for us to
readily notate any number from 1 to 7 eighth notes, 1 to 15
sixteenth notes etc.

Simplifying the notation of these different durations will ease
the processes of writing and reading music using them. With
widespread adoption, I can see it considerably enriching our
musical experiences.

I'm not so keen on his time signatures, as I don't see how we
can readily differentiate between, for example,
7/8 = 4/8 + 3/8
and its metrical inverse
7/8 = 3/8 + 4/8.

The problem is compounded (!) with more complex times, such
as 11/8.

I enjoyed reading the webpage, particularly his last sentence,
quoted below! :-) -

" I intend to compose pieces making full use of my new system
of notation, thus ensuring that I remain obscure and unsung. "

And I hope he's wrong.

Regards,
Yahya

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I agree this is worth while and on topic because very often there are crossover of ideas.
I like the idea of a symbol of to stand for a place in the binary notation, but i feel like if you notated notes with minuses, it might get confusing.
But this is possibly a trivial point considering the merit of the idea.
options might be things from the typewriter keyboard. 0
"
:
/
\
*
u
null sign etc. some might or should use the $ sign

Message: 17 Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 15:26:28 +1000
From: "Yahya Abdal-Aziz" <yahya@melbpc.org.au>
Subject: Gordon Rumson wrote:

>> New Notation Practice for Beats of Unusual Length
>> >> Greetings,
>> >> The question of notating strange meters etc came up via Cowell >> and I thought that the math of the issue might interest those with >> math skills (a few seem to hang around:))
>> >> Please see:
>> >> http://www3.telus.net/HansenSmythe/placenotation.html
>> >> By Steve Hansen Smythe
>> >> A theory and new notation.
>> >> Main page at:
>> >> http://www3.telus.net/HansenSmythe/
>> >> Again, sorry for the ot....but I think it important...
> >

Hi Gordon!

I personally don't find it _very_ off-topic; being intellectually
attracted to the notion of making art from very deliberately limited resources, I've tried at times to use traditional fugal
techniques, serial techniques etc, including "translating" a note
row into a metre and vice versa. For any remaining "total serialists" in the world (are there any?), I can only see new
tonal and metrical resources as being quite liberating - there
has to be only SO much one can do with 12 tones and traditional
2x3 metres in a given time span.

Stephen's proposal for notation is ingenious and simple. With
just one new symbol - the dash - he makes it possible for us to readily notate any number from 1 to 7 eighth notes, 1 to 15
sixteenth notes etc.

Simplifying the notation of these different durations will ease
the processes of writing and reading music using them. With
widespread adoption, I can see it considerably enriching our
musical experiences.

I'm not so keen on his time signatures, as I don't see how we
can readily differentiate between, for example,
7/8 = 4/8 + 3/8 and its metrical inverse 7/8 = 3/8 + 4/8.

The problem is compounded (!) with more complex times, such as 11/8.

I enjoyed reading the webpage, particularly his last sentence, quoted below! :-) -

" I intend to compose pieces making full use of my new system of notation, thus ensuring that I remain obscure and unsung. "

And I hope he's wrong.

Regards,
Yahya

-- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.12/77 - Release Date: 18/8/05

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

Kraig Grady wrote:
------------------------------------------
> I agree this is worth while and on topic because
> very often there are crossover of ideas.
> I like the idea of a symbol of to stand for a place
> in the binary notation, but i feel like if you
> notated notes with minuses, it might get confusing.
> But this is possibly a trivial point considering the
> merit of the idea.
> options might be things from the typewriter keyboard.
> 0
> "
> :
> /
> \
> *
> u
> null sign etc.
> some might or should use the $ sign
>
>
> Message: 17
> Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 15:26:28 +1000
> From: "Yahya Abdal-Aziz" <yahya@...>
>
> Gordon Rumson wrote:
> >> New Notation Practice for Beats of Unusual Length
> >>
> >> Greetings,
> >>
> >> The question of notating strange meters etc came up via Cowell
> >> and I thought that the math of the issue might interest those with
> >> math skills (a few seem to hang around:))
> >>
> >> Please see:
> >> http://www3.telus.net/HansenSmythe/placenotation.html
> >>
> >> By Steve Hansen Smythe
> >> A theory and new notation.
> >>
> >> Main page at:
> >> http://www3.telus.net/HansenSmythe/
> >>
> >> Again, sorry for the ot....but I think it important...
> >
>
> Hi Gordon!
>
> I personally don't find it _very_ off-topic; being intellectually
> attracted to the notion of making art from very deliberately
> limited resources, I've tried at times to use traditional fugal
> techniques, serial techniques etc, including "translating" a note
> row into a metre and vice versa. For any remaining "total
> serialists" in the world (are there any?), I can only see new
> tonal and metrical resources as being quite liberating - there
> has to be only SO much one can do with 12 tones and traditional
> 2x3 metres in a given time span.
>
> Stephen's ...

[correction: Steve's]

> ... proposal for notation is ingenious and simple. With
> just one new symbol - the dash - he makes it possible for us to
> readily notate any number from 1 to 7 eighth notes, 1 to 15
> sixteenth notes etc.
>
> Simplifying the notation of these different durations will ease
> the processes of writing and reading music using them. With
> widespread adoption, I can see it considerably enriching our
> musical experiences.
>
> I'm not so keen on his time signatures, as I don't see how we
> can readily differentiate between, for example,
> 7/8 = 4/8 + 3/8
> and its metrical inverse
> 7/8 = 3/8 + 4/8.
>
> The problem is compounded (!) with more complex times, such
> as 11/8.
>
>
> I enjoyed reading the webpage, particularly his last sentence,
> quoted below! :-) -
>
> " I intend to compose pieces making full use of my new system
> of notation, thus ensuring that I remain obscure and unsung. "
>
> And I hope he's wrong.
------------------------------------------

Hi Kraig,

Glad to know you feel that Steve's proposal for a binary
place-value notation for dots has merit.

I also wondered about the choice of the dash as the zero
symbol, since it's often used to mark tenuto notes. But
a simple modification would readily fix that without, I
think, confusing it with any other symbol common in music:
just stand it upright - the vertical bar or pipe symbol |
has been standard on computer keyboards for decades
now.

(I actually dislike using the dot, as it is so very small and
easily lost, or read where one doesn't exist, particularly
on old manuscripts. That's why I prefer a dot somewhat
larger than the full stop (period) we use in punctuation.
Depending on the music font used, a small diamond dot is
clearer and looks elegant.)

I think we need to be careful in choosing any new music
notational symbol to avoid ones that are easily confused
with existing musical symbols and signs. For that reason
alone, I don't think 0, " or : are suitable for our zero.

We also want a mark that is quick to make - about as
quick as the dot itself. That's why a single stroke is
probably better than a more complex shape like $. The
mark should also be small relative to the note head, and
certainly no bigger than about half the space between
lines of the staff - otherwise notating tone clusters
would be too ambiguous. There are four single strokes
we can reliably produce and differentiate on a small
scale - namely / \ | and -. Of these, the dash - is too
easily lost to view near a staff line, and more particularly
near a leger line. That leaves / \ and |. I'd settle for |
as representing a clear "break" in a sequence of dots.

(Then we could reserve / and \ for other interesting
possibilities - say for adding one or two thirds in a 3/3
metre? :-) Just kidding (I think)! 0

Using o to stand for the crotchet (quarter-note)
notehead, we'd have:

1/4 = o
17/64 = o|||.
9/32 = o||.
19/64 = o||..
5/16 = o|.
21/64 = o|.|.
11/32 = o|..
23/64 = o|...
3/8 = o.
25/64 = o.||.
etc
- - -
31/64 = o....

- and not a tie in sight!

Regards,
Yahya

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