1/4 tone in turkish scale?

hello
all the turkish modes i know, invlove 1/9,4/9,5/9,8/9 intervals
but i didnt saw any mode(makam) that involve the 6/9 and 7/9 (very close to arabic
3/4 tone)
is there any turkish makam that actually played with that 6/9 or 7/9 intervals?
tnx.

In theory, the Turkish system is based on a 17-tone Pythagorean tuning. In
53-tET (commas or ninth-tones), that would be

4 4 1 4 4 1 4 4 4 1 4 4 1
4 4 4 1

As you can see, it is impossible to form 6/9 or 7/9-tone intervals in this
scale.

However, Manuel lists these maqamat:

8 5 5 1 3 9 4 4 5 4 5 Maqam Eski Sipihr
1 4 9 8 5 9 9 3 5 Maqam Vechi Arazbar

where a 6/9-tone interval is present.

These may derive from the Pythagorean system extended to 24 tones, which I
believe is also recognized in Turkish theory:

4 1 3 1 4 1 3 1 4 1 3 1
3 1 4 1 3 1 4 1 3 1 3 1

A few 7/9-tone intervals are present here as well.

At 17:14 11/4/99 -0500, you wrote:
>From: "Paul H. Erlich" <PErlich@Acadian-Asset.com>
>
>In theory, the Turkish system is based on a 17-tone Pythagorean tuning. In
>53-tET (commas or ninth-tones), that would be
>
>4 4 1 4 4 1 4 4 4 1 4 4 1
>4 4 4 1
>
>As you can see, it is impossible to form 6/9 or 7/9-tone intervals in this
>scale.
>
>
>However, Manuel lists these maqamat:
>
>8 5 5 1 3 9 4 4 5 4 5 Maqam Eski Sipihr
>1 4 9 8 5 9 9 3 5 Maqam Vechi Arazbar
>
>where a 6/9-tone interval is present.
>
>
>These may derive from the Pythagorean system extended to 24 tones, which I
>believe is also recognized in Turkish theory:
>
> 4 1 3 1 4 1 3 1 4 1 3 1
>3 1 4 1 3 1 4 1 3 1 3 1
>
>A few 7/9-tone intervals are present here as well.
>
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

Dear Mr Erlich,

I believe you are referring to the Arel-Ezgi system suggested by these two
gentlemen near the turn of the century. There has been substantial
controversy over the 53-tET model within the 'dergah' circles. In fact some
master musicians trained in a dergah setting refer to the said model as a
'joke'. My findings based on direct measurements seem to support the latter
characterization.

I believe the jury is still out on the underlying scales for the 120+
maqamat in traditional Turkish music. At least until such time when
measurements are made to uncover the 'actual' scales used by indisputable
master musicians.

Sincerely,
Dr. Can Akkoc
Alabama School of Mathematics and Science
1255 Dauphin Street
Mobile, AL 36604
USA

Phone: (334) 441-2126
Fax: (334) 441-3290
Web: http://199.20.31.100/GIFT/