Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning 9000 year old flute

Hey folks,

I thought this post from the oddmusic list may be of interest to some of
you.

Darren Burgess

From: "Monty H. Levenson" <monty@shakuhachi.com>

Odd music indeed! The work of an ancient colleague unearthed:

Chinese archeologists have unearthed what is believed to be the oldest
known playable musical instrument, a seven-holed flute fashioned 9,000
years ago from the hollow wing bone of a large bird.

The instrument, about nine inches long, is the best preserved of six intact
flutes found with fragments of about 30 others at Jiahu, a remarkably rich
but little-known archeological site in the Yellow River valley in Henan
Province in central China. Radiocarbon dating shows the site was occupied
for 1,300 years beginning around 7000 B.C., during the early Neolithic
period in China.

Nine millennia after lips last touched it, the flute was played again and
its tones analyzed. The seven holes produced a rough scale covering a
modern octave, beginning close to the second A above middle C. There is
evidence that the flute was tuned: a small hole drilled next to the seventh
hole had the effect of raising that hole's tone from roughly G-sharp to A,
completing the octave.

🔗John F. Sprague <JSprague@xxxx.xxxxx.xx.xxx>

Although of interest to know how many tones in the scale, it would be much more useful to know what specific frequencies it produces, so that intervals can be calculated. One should not assume that only one hole was open at a time, as still other pitches could likely be produced, beyond the number of holes. Without this information, many people will simply assume that it plays some close approximation to equal temperament. That broken pieces of other flutes werre found at the same site would indicate that there may have been ensemble playing, with harmonic possibilities which could be of interest.

>>> "Darren Burgess" <dburgess@acceleration.net> 11/04 9:13 AM >>>
From: "Darren Burgess" <dburgess@acceleration.net>

Hey folks,

I thought this post from the oddmusic list may be of interest to some of
you.

Darren Burgess

From: "Monty H. Levenson" <monty@shakuhachi.com>

Odd music indeed! The work of an ancient colleague unearthed:

Chinese archeologists have unearthed what is believed to be the oldest
known playable musical instrument, a seven-holed flute fashioned 9,000
years ago from the hollow wing bone of a large bird.

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🔗Darren Burgess <dburgess@acceleration.net>

John and the list,

It would seem unusual to me that a 9000 year old flute would be attempting
to approximate 12TET, given the relative youthfulness and western bent of
that system.

At any rate, I have downloaded the wave file of the instrument from the
Nature website. If anyone cares to analyze it, please let me know and I
will pop it off to you. File is 3.7 megs. I will try running it through
spectrogram, but it is not most accurate way to measure the tones.

Unfortuately the musical analysis in the article that Nature has on the
instrument is hopelessly vague:

"The music research team did not use the modern standard of A4 = 440 Hz, but
instead adopted an arbitrary standard of hole 5 = 'C6'. (Based on A4 = 440
Hz, the actual tone of hole 5 was C6 + 2 Hz(20 Hz), averaged over eight
trials.) Then the interval relationships of the sounds from hole 3 to hole 7
fitted reasonably well to the note sequence E6, D6, C6, B5, A5, with the
tone of hole 1 = A6 and hole 2 = F#6. On this scale, the tone of the whole
tube is G5 or F#5. In Table 1 three of the intervals in M282:20 are
evaluated numerically. "

Darren Burgess
Gainesville FL

> From: "John F. Sprague" <JSprague@dhcr.state.ny.us>
>
> Although of interest to know how many tones in the scale, it would be much
more useful to know what specific frequencies it produces, so that intervals
can be calculated. One should not assume that only one hole was open at a
time, as still other pitches could likely be produced, beyond the number of
holes. Without this information, many people will simply assume that it
plays some close approximation to equal temperament. That broken pieces of
other flutes werre found at the same site would indicate that there may have
been ensemble playing, with harmonic possibilities which could be of
interest.
>
> >>> "Darren Burgess" <dburgess@acceleration.net> 11/04 9:13 AM >>>
> From: "Darren Burgess" <dburgess@acceleration.net>
>

🔗Darren Burgess <dburgess@acceleration.net>

Hey folks:

Here is rough measurement of the frequencies of the chinese flute using
spectrogram, a windows waveform spectrometer. The intonation is variable so
I averaged together the sample of each tone. Perhaps someone would be If
someone has the inclination, please analyze the intervals of these
frequencies.

Unfortunately the sample played includes only 6 unique tones, but the flute
in question has 7 holes:

Hertz:
1816
1515
1323
1174
964
880

Darren Burgess

🔗Bill Alves <alves@orion.ac.hmc.edu>

>Here is rough measurement of the frequencies of the chinese flute using
>spectrogram, a windows waveform spectrometer....

freq step size 12TET deviation possible JI interpretation
1816 Bb7 -46 cents 2/1 +54 cents
> 314 cents
1515 F#7 +40 cents 12/7 +7 cents
> 235 cents
1323 E7 +6 cents 3/2 +4 cents
> 207 cents
1174 D7 -1 cent 4/3 +1 cent
> 341 cents
964 B6 -42 cents 12/11 +7 cents
> 158 cents
880 A6 +0 cents 1/1

Anhemitonic pentatonic with an interesting neutral second, third, sixth,
but a nearly just fourth and fifth. I have interpreted the top pitch as an
octave, even though it is stretched more than a quarter tone. Stretched
octaves are not uncommon in the world and are usually identified as octaves
(rather than ninths).

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^ Bill Alves email: alves@hmc.edu ^
^ Harvey Mudd College URL: http://www2.hmc.edu/~alves/ ^
^ 301 E. Twelfth St. (909)607-4170 (office) ^
^ Claremont CA 91711 USA (909)607-7600 (fax) ^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

🔗Darren Burgess <dburgess@xxxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx>

Thanks for the interpretation Bill. Since the sound sample does not make
use of 2 pitches in the flute, I wonder what they would be. The tune played
is an ancient chinese folk song that begins on 1816 htz and ends on 880. If
we reference the Nature quote, we can add one more pitch, C6:

So our C6 would be about 1048 hertz. Is the interpretation of Nature's
"music research team" way off?

Darren
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Alves <alves@orion.ac.hmc.edu>
To: <tuning@onelist.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 04, 1999 11:44 PM
Subject: Re: [tuning] 9000 year old flute

> From: alves@orion.ac.hmc.edu (Bill Alves)
>
> >Here is rough measurement of the frequencies of the chinese flute using
> >spectrogram, a windows waveform spectrometer....
>
> freq step size 12TET deviation possible JI interpretation
> 1816 Bb7 -46 cents 2/1 +54 cents
> > 314 cents
> 1515 F#7 +40 cents 12/7 +7 cents
> > 235 cents
> 1323 E7 +6 cents 3/2 +4 cents
> > 207 cents
> 1174 D7 -1 cent 4/3 +1 cent
> > 341 cents
> 964 B6 -42 cents 12/11 +7 cents
> > 158 cents
> 880 A6 +0 cents 1/1
>
> Anhemitonic pentatonic with an interesting neutral second, third, sixth,
> but a nearly just fourth and fifth. I have interpreted the top pitch as an
> octave, even though it is stretched more than a quarter tone. Stretched
> octaves are not uncommon in the world and are usually identified as
octaves
> (rather than ninths).
>
>
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> ^ Bill Alves email: alves@hmc.edu ^
> ^ Harvey Mudd College URL: http://www2.hmc.edu/~alves/ ^
> ^ 301 E. Twelfth St. (909)607-4170 (office) ^
> ^ Claremont CA 91711 USA (909)607-7600 (fax) ^
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> > You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
> email. Send an empty email to one of these addresses:
> tuning-subscribe@onelist.com - subscribe to the tuning list.
> tuning-unsubscribe@onelist.com - unsubscribe from the tuning list.
> tuning-digest@onelist.com - switch your subscription to digest mode.
> tuning-normal@onelist.com - switch your subscription to normal mode.
>

🔗alves@xxxxx.xx.xxx.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx)

Filling in the missing C from Darren's interpretation of the Nature article
(and changing the octave notation to agree with theirs):

freq step size 12TET deviation possible JI interpretation
1816 Bb6 -46 cents 2/1 +54 cents
> 314 cents
1515 F#6 +40 cents 12/7 +7 cents
> 235 cents
1323 E6 +6 cents 3/2 +4 cents
> 207 cents
1174 D6 -1 cent 4/3 +1 cent
> 197 cents
1048 C6 +2 cents 19/16 +4 cents
> 145 cents
964 B5 -42 cents 12/11 +7 cents
> 158 cents
880 A5 +0 cents 1/1

It's difficult for me to say whether Nature's interpretation is off-base,
since the quote is far from clear. For example, I'm not sure what "the
actual tone of hole 5 was C6 + 2 Hz(20 Hz)" means. Certainly to say that,
"Then the interval relationships of the sounds from hole 3 to hole 7 fitted
reasonably well to the note sequence E6, D6, C6, B5, A5..." according to
these measurements is not very accurate, since at least 2 of the intervals
(not counting the possible stretched octave) are quite far away from 12TET
or indeed a reasonable interpretation of a diatonic tuning.

A lovely sounding scale for a lot of music, though. The neutral intervals
give it a rather Arabic sound to my ears, like one of the more mysterious
maqamat. As the recording of the Chinese melody showed, it would also make
available some interesting anhemitonic pentatonic modes.

Bill

🔗Paul H. Erlich <PErlich@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx>

Darren Burgess wrote,

>It would seem unusual to me that a 9000 year old flute would be attempting
>to approximate 12TET,

Agreed.

>given the relative youthfulness and western bent of
>that system.

The mathematically correct description of 12tET was found in China shortly
before it was found in the West, and the theoretical idea of 12tET goes back
to antiquity in both cultures. Western bent?

🔗Darren Burgess <dburgess@xxxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx>

Thanks for the clarification. I didn't know this. If you have a moment
please take some time to explain more fully.

> From: "Paul H. Erlich" <PErlich@Acadian-Asset.com>
>
> Darren Burgess wrote,
>
> >It would seem unusual to me that a 9000 year old flute would be
attempting
> >to approximate 12TET,
>
> Agreed.
>
> >given the relative youthfulness and western bent of
> >that system.
>
> The mathematically correct description of 12tET was found in China shortly
> before it was found in the West, and the theoretical idea of 12tET goes
back
> to antiquity in both cultures. Western bent?
>

🔗Ed & Alita Morrison <essaim@xxxxx.xxxx>

What is the web page address for the information about the 9000 year old
flute?
I have been reading many people's commentary on the tuning onelist about
the flute with much interest but have not found the web page were such
information is discussed.
About two years ago I found a web page which discusses a Neanderthal flute
made 43,000 to 82,000 year old of cave bear femur bone. It was a segment
with 4 holes, the two end holes being broken. The article speculates on
the sound of the flute before it was broken so long ago. The web page
address is http://www.webster.sk.ca/greenwich/fl-compl.htm Also an
article talking about the same flute is found at
http://www.uh.edu/engines/epi1232.htm Dr. John Lienhard has written over
1400 articles on many subjects which he calls "Engines of Our Ingenity."
The articles are well-worth reading and have been indexed.
Alita Morrison

🔗Darren Burgess <dburgess@xxxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx>

The original article about this find appeared in Nature Magazine.
www.nature.com, i think. Do a search in their site for flute and you will
find it. You have to subscribe (free) first.

Check it
out and download a RA sound file at
http://www.shakuhachi.com/K-9KChineseFlutes-Nature.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/450000/audio/_454594_flutes.ram
...and learn more:
http://www.nytimes.com/library/national/science/092899sci-archeology-china.h
tml
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/science/1999/0927/sci3.htm
http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/tim/99/09/23/timfgnfar01008.html?19
96766

> From: "Ed & Alita Morrison" <essaim@texas.net>
>
> What is the web page address for the information about the 9000 year old
> flute?

🔗Darren Burgess <dburgess@xxxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx>

This article claims that the Neanderthals were playing diatonic music.
Perhaps some of you could read it and generate some discussion. This
neanderthal flute is a broken segment of a larger bone. It has four holes
remaining in it. They make a number of claims based on the various
measurements, and even attempted to reproduce it, which supposedly confirmed
their theories.

Darren
> About two years ago I found a web page which discusses a Neanderthal flute
> made 43,000 to 82,000 year old of cave bear femur bone. It was a segment
> with 4 holes, the two end holes being broken. The article speculates on
> the sound of the flute before it was broken so long ago. The web page
> address is http://www.webster.sk.ca/greenwich/fl-compl.htm Also an
> article talking about the same flute is found at
> http://www.uh.edu/engines/epi1232.htm Dr. John Lienhard has written
over

🔗Fred Reinagel <freinagel@xxxxxxxx.xxxx>

It has been my observation that although an instrument may be designed to play
a certain species of music in a certain way, the perversity of human nature
will soon find many other ways play that instrument in radially different
ways. A case in point is illustrated by the following ad I spotted in the
Early Music Shop of New England's latest mailing:

"Quarter-tone Recorder Manual

A guide for learning quarter-tone fingerings and developing fine pitch
discrimination; with pull-out fingering chart, 30 studies (one for each new
pitch), and a bibliography of quarter-tone music."

Not knowing what fingerings the flute player was using 9000 years ago, how can
we conjecture what scale tuning she/he was using?

Fred Reinagel

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