keyboard synth question

This would seem to me to be a common beginner's question, but I
couldn't find it in the faqs or other files.

I would like recommendations as to a good keyboard synthesizer to
start playing around with just intonation and other alternate tunings.

A little bit about myself: I have only previously played acoustic
instruments, and the only experience I have with alternate tunings is
playing modal music on my banjo. I used to be an electrical engineer,
so I understand the theory behind electronic tone generation pretty
well, but I have absolutely no practical experience with computer
music, electronic music, etc.

Can you give me some recommendations to get started in the right
direction? Perhaps a good starter keyboard with sufficient tuning
table flexibility to allow me to play around, and then perhaps a
"money is no object" recommendation as well? I would prefer not to
start with software synthesizers, as I'd like something I can interact
with physically a little more, but if you think I'd be best starting
with software, please let me know that too.

Thank you!

Mike Brooks

On 6/18/05, Michael A. Brooks <xbroox@yahoo.com> wrote:
> This would seem to me to be a common beginner's question, but I
> couldn't find it in the faqs or other files.

You aren't having much luck with this question, are you? I was hoping
you'd get a more knowledgable answer, but it looks like you're stuck
with me again.

> I would like recommendations as to a good keyboard synthesizer to
> start playing around with just intonation and other alternate tunings.

The simple answer is to look here:

http://www.microtonal-synthesis.com/

and see if there's something you like listed. You'll see that it
tells you if full keyboard scales are supported.

> A little bit about myself: I have only previously played acoustic
> instruments, and the only experience I have with alternate tunings is
> playing modal music on my banjo. I used to be an electrical engineer,
> so I understand the theory behind electronic tone generation pretty
> well, but I have absolutely no practical experience with computer
> music, electronic music, etc.
>
> Can you give me some recommendations to get started in the right
> direction? Perhaps a good starter keyboard with sufficient tuning
> table flexibility to allow me to play around, and then perhaps a
> "money is no object" recommendation as well? I would prefer not to
> start with software synthesizers, as I'd like something I can interact
> with physically a little more, but if you think I'd be best starting
> with software, please let me know that too.

The trouble is, full keyboard tuning tends to be something that gets
left out of starter keyboards. You might be able to find a
second-hand DX7 II. Or a TX81Z and plug an input keyboard into it.
That's starting to get more and more pointless, though, because soft
synths are getting so good at copying them (I don't even think it's
even "emulating" because they just use the same algorithms). And a
TX81Z in particular is lousy for physical interaction. All you get is
a few buttons to press. It's the same kind of user interface you get
with a digital watch or video recorder of the same vintage.

Perhaps you're thinking of analog. There are boxes that convert MIDI
signals in to analog control voltages. The trouble is, I don't think
any of them work with microtonal tunings at all. There are some nice
digital keyboards that emulate analogs, with knobs and tuning, but not
at entry level. And there are some lovely software packages.

Really, the path of least resistance is just to get a cheap input
keyboard and a USB/MIDI convertor. Then play with soft synths on the
computer you must already have to be sending these e-mails. Even if
you don't like that setup, at least you'll have more idea what to look
for when you go shopping for a performance synth, or a knob box.

Graham

I too thought a better answer than I could give would surface, too, but here's another contribution:

as an example keyboard (among others, no doubt) the kurzweil K2600 and K2500 keyboards can be set easily to different temperaments; they are available in good condition used, and are good quality keyboards that can be played by a pianist without disgust; they are synthesizers that come with a good variety of sounds. About $1200 used, I think, for intstruments that were $5000 a few years ago.

HOWEVER, any keyboard tuning is going to be a TEMPERAMENT, and will be a fixed tuning. Try out 'just intonation', for example, and you will discover the wolf very quickly. Makes any playing of music from any time (almost) impossible. For things like experimenting with mean-tone and other temperaments, it's fine, however. You wanted to avoid software solutions, but remember with software you can program tuning changes, and have many-note tuning schemes not limited to twelve keys per octave.

Graham Breed wrote:
> On 6/18/05, Michael A. Brooks <xbroox@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>This would seem to me to be a common beginner's question, but I
>>couldn't find it in the faqs or other files.
> > > You aren't having much luck with this question, are you? I was hoping
> you'd get a more knowledgable answer, but it looks like you're stuck
> with me again.
>

Mike,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Michael A. Brooks" <xbroox@y...> wrote:
> I would like recommendations as to a good keyboard synthesizer to
> start playing around with just intonation and other alternate tunings.

Sorry to be tardy in answering.

If you can, for a moment, forego the idea of an "all-hardware"
orientation, you can do what you want to in a very easy and completely
cost-effective manner: if you already have a relatively recent
computer (i.e. not one from 5 years ago or more), you can do what
you'd like with a very inexpensive MIDI keyboard for input only and
some freeware applications.

I can only speak for sure from a PC platform experience, but you can
find MIDI kbds for not a lot of money, and you can use either a kbd
controller (i.e. doesn't make sounds, just used to control other
devices) or a standard MIDI kbd and just turn off the internal sounds.
Download the freeware program Scala

http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/scala/

and install it. Once it is on your system, and you've installed
whatever drivers needed for the kbd, you can use that kbd to play any
of the 1000's of scales in the Scala collection, or use Scala to
create your own entirely new scales. The kbd will use the sound card
in your computer.

This will get you hearing and working with your tunings. It isn't an
ideal situation for making more sophisticated musical settings, but
for that there are a growing number of software synthesizers and
samplers that not only are less expensive than hardware, but many now
support a number of tuning file formats, all creatable with Scala.
Design a scale/tuning in Scala, save a file, import it into a software
instrument - voila! - you can now use it with a myriad of sounds.

I don't have time for links, but you can find software tuning support
info at the link Graham provided. I can tell you the following, which
I use, fully support any tuning I'd like:

Virsyn Tera 2.0
rgc:audio z3ta+
BigTick Rhino 2.0
LinPlug CronoX 3.0 and Alpha 2.0

I know the above inexpensive solution works, because we've recently
gotten a fellow tuning list person, with no experience in this, from
nowhere to playing his own custom scale.

HTH,
Jon

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Guglielmo <gugliel@g...> wrote:
> I too thought a better answer than I could give would surface, too, but
> here's another contribution:
>
> as an example keyboard (among others, no doubt) the kurzweil K2600 and
> K2500 keyboards can be set easily to different temperaments; they are
> available in good condition used, and are good quality keyboards that
> can be played by a pianist without disgust; they are synthesizers that
> come with a good variety of sounds. About $1200 used, I think, for
> intstruments that were $5000 a few years ago.
>
> HOWEVER, any keyboard tuning is going to be a TEMPERAMENT,

I think you have the wrong idea about what is meant by "temperament".
Given sufficient tuning resolution you can tune anything you like. It
doesn't have to be a temperament. It can be any JI scale for which
there are enough keys.

> and will be a fixed tuning.

Yes. Although there is software that can retune on-the-fly via MIDI.

> Try out 'just intonation', for example, and you will
> discover the wolf very quickly.

I think you have the wrong idea about the meaning of "just
intonation". Whether you take the "perceptible" or the "rational"
definition, we all agree that a JI scale does not have to be free of
wolves. Quite the opposite. A temperament will usually have fewer
wolves than any JI scale it can be said to be derived from.

> Makes any playing of music from any time (almost) impossible.

I have no idea why you would say this. Please explain.

> For things like experimenting with mean-tone
> and other temperaments, it's fine, however. You wanted to avoid
> software solutions, but remember with software you can program tuning
> changes, and have many-note tuning schemes not limited to twelve keys
> per octave.

True.

I wonder if perhaps the distinction you are trying to make by using
the terms "temperament" and "just intonation" is in fact the
distinction between "just intonation" and "adaptive just intonation".

-- Dave Keenan

Dave Keenan wrote [ several harsh comments about my comments ] ..

so will try to explain a few things better ..

a standard midi keyboard with 12 notes per octave will limit you to a tuning of 12 pitches per octave, thus the software options are better if you want more complicated settings;

and, playing a 'just intonation' tuning on one of these keyboards, i said, was "impossible" --- should have said, it is "unbearable"! (but even that may be a matter of taste)

guglielmo

Guglielmo,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Guglielmo <gugliel@g...> wrote:
> a standard midi keyboard with 12 notes per octave will limit you to a
> tuning of 12 pitches per octave

Please forgive me if somehow I am misunderstanding you, but I don't
believe that is entirely accurate. While I can't vouch for hardware
that is currently in production, there are a *number* of hardware
synthesizers that *have* had the ability to tune the entire kbd
however you would like; in other words, they were *not* limited to
simply 12-note-per-octave repeating tunings. Kurzweil had a couple
instruments, and Emu also produced some. All of this information can
be found on John Loffink's Microtonal Synthesis website.

That said, it is both easier and more cost effective to use software
these days.

Cheers,
Jon

Dave,

You say "there is software that can retune on-the-fly
via MIDI". What software is that, and where can I get
it? I was looking for such software a while ago
(including asking on this list), and I didn't find it.

Cheers,
Patty

Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <jszanto@c...> wrote:
>
> Download the freeware program Scala
>
> http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/scala/
>
> and install it. Once it is on your system, and you've installed
> whatever drivers needed for the kbd, you can use that kbd to play any
> of the 1000's of scales in the Scala collection, or use Scala to
> create your own entirely new scales. The kbd will use the sound card
> in your computer.
>

Are you saying Scala supports live kbd playing?! Aaargh, I have had
Scala installed on my computer for an eternity and didn't know that!!
Gotta try that out right away... From which version, BTW?

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "hstraub64" <hstraub64@t...> wrote:
> Are you saying Scala supports live kbd playing?! Aaargh, I have had
> Scala installed on my computer for an eternity and didn't know that!!

Last option under the "Tools" menu: "Relay MIDI". Brings up a dialog,
choose your MIDI input device, down at the bottom click on "Start
Relaying", voila - keyboard (or other) now plays back the tuning you
have loaded. Nothing fancy, and there is a bit of latency (at least
for me - all I've used to hear the tunings is the built-in GS MIDI
synth on the computer sound card; I've never tried to see if it would
relay to something else, and if Manuel could ever incorporate using
VST instruments with ASIO drivers, it would be *really* happening...).

> Gotta try that out right away... From which version, BTW?

Couldn't say. Just download the latest and go with it.

Cheers,
Jon

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Guglielmo <gugliel@g...> wrote:
>
> Dave Keenan wrote [ several harsh comments about my comments ] ..

My humble apologies if you found my comments harsh. I was simply
struggling to make sense of what you wrote.

Michael Brooks asked
"I would like recommendations as to a good keyboard synthesizer to
start playing around with just intonation and other alternate tunings."

You replied, "... any keyboard tuning is going to be a TEMPERAMENT".

Your use of "any" without further qualification, and your use of the
future tense "is going to be" mislead me.

Thanks to Paul Erlich I now understand that you may have actually
meant something like, "... all historical common-practice Western
keyboard tunings are temperaments". With which, of course, I have no
argument.

> and, playing a 'just intonation' tuning on one of these keyboards, i
> said, was "impossible" --- should have said, it is "unbearable"! (but
> even that may be a matter of taste)

It certainly is a matter of taste.

I've heard wonderful pieces that use no more than 7 (sometimes maybe
only 5) notes per octave in strict just intonation. David Hill's Piano
CDs come to mind.

-- Dave Keenan

i am enjoying the CASIO WK-1630 Workstation after several years i am getting the hang of it. as far as tuning is concerned -- it comes tuned to A=440 and you can tune up or down 12 intervals in either direction. there is also a CASIO WK-1800 that is the same with midid. the one i got was a gift from mommy. wholesale, $250.00

chiptruth@excite.com

--- On Thu 06/23, Dave Keenan < d.keenan@bigpond.net.au > wrote:
From: Dave Keenan [mailto: d.keenan@bigpond.net.au]
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 00:40:20 -0000
Subject: [tuning] Re: keyboard synth question

<html><body>

<tt>
--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Guglielmo <gugliel@g...> wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Dave Keenan wrote [ several harsh comments about my comments ] ..<BR>
<BR>
My humble apologies if you found my comments harsh. I was simply<BR>
struggling to make sense of what you wrote.<BR>
<BR>
Michael Brooks asked<BR>
"I would like recommendations as to a good keyboard synthesizer to<BR>
start playing around with just intonation and other alternate tunings."<BR>
<BR>
You replied, "... any keyboard tuning is going to be a TEMPERAMENT".<BR>
<BR>
Your use of "any" without further qualification, and your use of the<BR>
future tense "is going to be" mislead me.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks to Paul Erlich I now understand that you may have actually<BR>
meant something like, "... all historical common-practice Western<BR>
keyboard tunings are temperaments". With which, of course, I have no<BR>
argument.<BR>
<BR>
> and, playing a 'just intonation' tuning on one of these keyboards, i <BR>
> said, was "impossible" --- should have said, it is "unbearable"! (but <BR>
> even that may be a matter of taste)<BR>
<BR>
It certainly is a matter of taste.<BR>
<BR>
I've heard wonderful pieces that use no more than 7 (sometimes maybe<BR>
only 5) notes per octave in strict just intonation. David Hill's Piano<BR>
CDs come to mind.<BR>
<BR>
-- Dave Keenan<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</tt>

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--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Mikal De Valia" <chiptruth@e...> wrote:
> i am enjoying the CASIO WK-1630 Workstation after several years i am
getting the hang of it. as far as tuning is concerned -- it comes
tuned to A=440 and you can tune up or down 12 intervals in either
direction.

Mikal, I'm sorry, but you are mis-understanding the nature of the
discussion: the tuning we are talking about is retuning the individual
notes of the scale, including 12 notes per octave, as well as possible
many more (or a few less) per octave. Your Casio can not be retuned
itself, and moving up and down by "12 intervals" is _transposing_ the
instrument within 12tet, NOT tuning it.

That is, unless I have somehow mis-understood your post!

Cheers,
Jon

Oops! Sorry Patrick. I remembered wrong.

I was thinking of John deLaubenfels' software, but in fact it does the
retuning "at leisure" rather than "on-the-fly".
http://personalpages.bellsouth.net/j/d/jdelaub/jstudio.htm

Google
"John deLaubenfels" adaptive
for more.

My own crude attempt was "on-the-fly", but not JI, rather meantone.
http://dkeenan.com/Music/index.htm

Sorry to have got your hopes up.

-- Dave Keenan

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Heddles <p_heddles@y...> wrote:
> Dave,
>
> You say "there is software that can retune on-the-fly
> via MIDI". What software is that, and where can I get
> it? I was looking for such software a while ago
> (including asking on this list), and I didn't find it.
>
> Cheers,
> Patty

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <jszanto@c...> wrote:
>
> Last option under the "Tools" menu: "Relay MIDI". Brings up a dialog,
> choose your MIDI input device, down at the bottom click on "Start
> Relaying", voila - keyboard (or other) now plays back the tuning you
> have loaded. Nothing fancy, and there is a bit of latency (at least
> for me - all I've used to hear the tunings is the built-in GS MIDI
> synth on the computer sound card; I've never tried to see if it would
> relay to something else, and if Manuel could ever incorporate using
> VST instruments with ASIO drivers, it would be *really* happening...).
>

Ha - that works indeed! Version 2.2s, BTW. With the computer's SW
synth, indeed a lot of latency, though... But it also works with the
Roland JV1010 - not so stable tuning (the pitches seem to vary a
little), but less latency.
Thanks for the information!

Dave,

No worries - just checking. Incidentally, I'm
currently working on a non-realtime equivalent, which
will (hopefully) analyse MIDI files and insert tuning
commands appropriately. One of these days...

Cheers,
Patrick

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