The Modern Turkish Tunbur of Mes'ud Ekrem Cemil Bey Tel

From --

http://www.kulturturizm.gov.tr/portal/kultur_en.asp?belgeno=5896

******************************

This is one, and perhaps the most important, of the stringed and
plucked instruments of Ottoman music. One view is that the
tambur was an ancient development of the 'kopuz,' while others
suggest that its own history goes back to very early times. Yet
another theory is that the tambur is the first evolution and change
of the baglama family of instruments.

The word tambur comes from the Arabic 'tunbur,' and it is widely
believed that this comes from the Sumerian word 'pantur,' a
semispherical stringed instrument with a long stem. Another view
is that it comes from the words (tabla, tabl, tabil, tabul etc.) for
percussion instruments that have been used since the very
earliest times. There is mention in the Hittite civilisation of a
stringed instrument called a 'TIBULA.' It is generally agreed that
this was in all probability a long-stemmed stringed instrument.
Texts from those times reveal that it was used to accaompany the
spoken word and dancing. All of this inevitably leads one to the
opinion that the roots of the instrument go back to Hittite and
Sumerian times. The word 'tambur' was later used in Iran and
central Asia for pear-bodied long-stemmed instruments more
closely resembling the baglama. Some instruments today played
by the Turks of Asia are called 'tambura,' or 'dombra' etc. Today
the tambur, described by European travellers (such as Charles
Fonton and Toderini) as a visible reflection of the Turkish musical
system with its fret links on the stem, is probably the only
instrument solely used in Turkey. The instrument was carried to
Europe by migrants, and it is known that it was used in the 12th
and 13th centuries before being abandoned.

This instrument developed with the historical process that gave
rise to Ottoman music, reaching its most developed form in the
16th century and becoming an indispensable part of that music.
The body of the tambur is semispherical and made by sticking
layers of wood together side by side. It generally has a diameter of
up to 35 cm. The stem is joined to the body be being buried in a
wedge, and is about 104 cm. long. The peg area is an extension
of the stem. Each of the strings that emerge from the peforated
string wedge at the edge of the body goes over the bridge and
along the stem, being attached to the pegs by being tapped into
the notched main bridge made of bone and the other bone bridge
at the end of it. The bridge is generally made of fir, and presses
onto the chest, itself generally made of thin pine. The vibration of
the strings lead to that part of the chest under the bridge being
indented. The bottom of the stem is round, and the top flat. The
fret links used to be made of gut, although nylon is usually
preferred these days. The tambur had between 45 and 55 frets.
Some tambur virtuosi wanted to make the transposition of the
melodic creation to several frets easier by linking 64 and even 65
of them. The oldest known form of the tambur is two-stringed,
although these days it generally has seven. Eight strings were
employed in the 18th and 19th centuries.

The inflexible tambur plectrum is usually made of tortoiseshell. It is
about 12 cm. long, 9-10 mm. wide and 1-1.5 mm. thick, and both
ends can be used. However, the two ends are different to one
another to allow them to be used for different timbres. The
plectrum is held with the thumb and index and middle fingers of
the right hand, and the thin side is used to strike the strings in a
perpendicular manner. That is what gives the instrument its full-
bodied sound. Apart from the kopuz, which has had its own place
in courtly Ottoman music since the 16th century, the tambur is
presently the only instrument to be played in this manner.

Although the tambur was a plucked stringed instrument, Tamburi
Cemil Bey played it with a bow instead, which immediately
became very popular. In the old way of playing the instrument, the
'steel' and 'copper' strings were struck once and the melody would
be produced by using as many frets as possible before the
vibration faded away. That led to it being resembled to the human
larynx.

******************************

It is clear from this description that a larger number of frets than
24 frets per octave (say, 64 frets / 2 = 32 frets per octave) is to
accommodate transpositions, not to alter basic music theory.

It is clear from this description that Tamburi Cemil Bey's
adaptation of the tunbur with "as many frets as possible" was to
serve the subtle intonations of the human voice, not to alter basic
music theory.

From the Ocara Radio France CD --

Turquie: Archives de la musique turque (2)

a solo tunbur recording by Mes'ud Ekrem Cemil Bey Tel (1902-
1963), [son of Tamburi Cemil Bey (1871-1916)] in Makam Mahur -
- and composed by Tamburi Cemil Bey -- clearly indicates a
tuning based on 24 frets per octave.

Cris Forster, Music Director
www.Chrysalis-Foundation.org

Utter bafflement and horror descends on me.
----- Original Message -----
From: Cris Forster
To: Tuning
Sent: 15 Haziran 2005 Çarşamba 19:02
Subject: [tuning] The Modern Turkish Tunbur of Mes'ud Ekrem Cemil Bey Tel

>From --

http://www.kulturturizm.gov.tr/portal/kultur_en.asp?belgeno=5896

******************************

This is one, and perhaps the most important, of the stringed and
plucked instruments of Ottoman music. One view is that the
tambur was an ancient development of the 'kopuz,' while others
suggest that its own history goes back to very early times. Yet
another theory is that the tambur is the first evolution and change
of the baglama family of instruments.

The word tambur comes from the Arabic 'tunbur,' and it is widely
believed that this comes from the Sumerian word 'pantur,' a
semispherical stringed instrument with a long stem. Another view
is that it comes from the words (tabla, tabl, tabil, tabul etc.) for
percussion instruments that have been used since the very
earliest times. There is mention in the Hittite civilisation of a
stringed instrument called a 'TIBULA.' It is generally agreed that
this was in all probability a long-stemmed stringed instrument.
Texts from those times reveal that it was used to accaompany the
spoken word and dancing. All of this inevitably leads one to the
opinion that the roots of the instrument go back to Hittite and
Sumerian times. The word 'tambur' was later used in Iran and
central Asia for pear-bodied long-stemmed instruments more
closely resembling the baglama. Some instruments today played
by the Turks of Asia are called 'tambura,' or 'dombra' etc. Today
the tambur, described by European travellers (such as Charles
Fonton and Toderini) as a visible reflection of the Turkish musical
system with its fret links on the stem, is probably the only
instrument solely used in Turkey. The instrument was carried to
Europe by migrants, and it is known that it was used in the 12th
and 13th centuries before being abandoned.

This instrument developed with the historical process that gave
rise to Ottoman music, reaching its most developed form in the
16th century and becoming an indispensable part of that music.
The body of the tambur is semispherical and made by sticking
layers of wood together side by side. It generally has a diameter of
up to 35 cm. The stem is joined to the body be being buried in a
wedge, and is about 104 cm. long. The peg area is an extension
of the stem. Each of the strings that emerge from the peforated
string wedge at the edge of the body goes over the bridge and
along the stem, being attached to the pegs by being tapped into
the notched main bridge made of bone and the other bone bridge
at the end of it. The bridge is generally made of fir, and presses
onto the chest, itself generally made of thin pine. The vibration of
the strings lead to that part of the chest under the bridge being
indented. The bottom of the stem is round, and the top flat. The
fret links used to be made of gut, although nylon is usually
preferred these days. The tambur had between 45 and 55 frets.
Some tambur virtuosi wanted to make the transposition of the
melodic creation to several frets easier by linking 64 and even 65
of them. The oldest known form of the tambur is two-stringed,
although these days it generally has seven. Eight strings were
employed in the 18th and 19th centuries.

The inflexible tambur plectrum is usually made of tortoiseshell. It is
about 12 cm. long, 9-10 mm. wide and 1-1.5 mm. thick, and both
ends can be used. However, the two ends are different to one
another to allow them to be used for different timbres. The
plectrum is held with the thumb and index and middle fingers of
the right hand, and the thin side is used to strike the strings in a
perpendicular manner. That is what gives the instrument its full-
bodied sound. Apart from the kopuz, which has had its own place
in courtly Ottoman music since the 16th century, the tambur is
presently the only instrument to be played in this manner.

Although the tambur was a plucked stringed instrument, Tamburi
Cemil Bey played it with a bow instead, which immediately
became very popular. In the old way of playing the instrument, the
'steel' and 'copper' strings were struck once and the melody would
be produced by using as many frets as possible before the
vibration faded away. That led to it being resembled to the human
larynx.

******************************

It is clear from this description that a larger number of frets than
24 frets per octave (say, 64 frets / 2 = 32 frets per octave) is to
accommodate transpositions, not to alter basic music theory.

Hah! Hark at the one who presumes he has monopoly over interpreting Maqam Music theory. Hark at those who assume that JI intervals used by Maqam Music can be correctly represented both in pitch and notation by a pure cycle of fifths. Even a simple scrutiny of the link to a taksim recording on the bottom of that same page would confirm the usage of intervals around 12/11 and 13/12. Of course some people do not concern themselves at all whether the frets give these interval or not.

It is clear from this description that Tamburi Cemil Bey's
adaptation of the tunbur with "as many frets as possible" was to
serve the subtle intonations of the human voice, not to alter basic
music theory.

Shame on those who attempt to justify their ignominy by such devious ploys and sinister arguments in order to contort the actual practice of a genre that escapes their understanding.

>From the Ocara Radio France CD --

Turquie: Archives de la musique turque (2)

a solo tunbur recording by Mes'ud Ekrem Cemil Bey Tel (1902-
1963), [son of Tamburi Cemil Bey (1871-1916)] in Makam Mahur -
- and composed by Tamburi Cemil Bey -- clearly indicates a
tuning based on 24 frets per octave.

Cris Forster, Music Director
www.Chrysalis-Foundation.org

From my manuscript Musical Mathematics: A Practice in the
Mathematics of Tuning Instruments and Analyzing Scales

******************************

"A numerical analysis reveals that Al-Farabi's length ratios include
six prime factors: 2, 3, 7, 11, 17, 149, and Ibn Sina's, only four
prime factors: 2, 3, 7, 13."

******************************

Obviously, the moveable frets on uds and tunburs do not exclude
any prime factors.

For that reason, equally obvious is the fact that within a given
civilization, theorists and theories may differ and coexist, but not
at the expense of myopic and historical denial.

Cris Forster

>Even a simple scrutiny of the link to a taksim recording on the
>bottom of that same page would confirm the usage of intervals
>around 12/11 and 13/12.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@s...> wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Cris Forster
> To: Tuning
> Sent: 15 Haziran 2005 Çarþamba 19:02
> Subject: [tuning] The Modern Turkish Tunbur of Mes'ud Ekrem
Cemil Bey Tel
>
>

> Hah! Hark at the one who presumes he has monopoly over
>interpreting Maqam Music theory. Hark at those who assume that JI
>intervals used by Maqam Music can be correctly represented both in
>pitch and notation by a pure cycle of fifths. Even a simple
>scrutiny of the link to a taksim recording on the bottom of that
>same page would confirm the usage of intervals around 12/11 and
>13/12. Of course some people do not concern themselves at all
>whether the frets give these interval or not.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "c_ml_forster" <76153.763@c...> wrote:

> "A numerical analysis reveals that Al-Farabi's length ratios include
> six prime factors: 2, 3, 7, 11, 17, 149, and Ibn Sina's, only four
> prime factors: 2, 3, 7, 13."

Can you give a url of a catalog of these scales? I wonder if the
{2,3,7,13} tone group would be worth exploring on this basis.

> Obviously, the moveable frets on uds and tunburs do not exclude
> any prime factors.
>
> For that reason, equally obvious is the fact that within a given
> civilization, theorists and theories may differ and coexist, but
> not at the expense of myopic and historical denial.
>
> Cris Forster

The assumption behind at least one brand of music theory,
Mr. Forster, is that those who move frets do not do so
haphazardly, but unknowingly follow (to some degree of
approximation) natural laws. An effort to discover such
laws does not necessarily seek to upset people such as
yourself, though if you like being upset it's fine I suppose.

-Carl

I know of no such URL's in the history of computerdom.

That is precisely why I spent three years with _La Musique Arabe_,
translating the great theorists from the Arabian Renaissance, and
putting their phenomenal achievements in the context of present day
instrument tunings, and maqamat, dastgaha, etc.

Of course, I could release the Ibn Sina pages you requested from my
Musical Mathematics: A Practice in the Mathematics of Tuning
Instruments and Analyzing Scales. Frankly, I find the lack of fair
play and contextual appreciation from members of the tuning group
nothing but uninspiring.

Cris Forster

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...>
wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "c_ml_forster" <76153.763@c...>
wrote:
>
> > "A numerical analysis reveals that Al-Farabi's length ratios
include
> > six prime factors: 2, 3, 7, 11, 17, 149, and Ibn Sina's, only
four
> > prime factors: 2, 3, 7, 13."
>
> Can you give a url of a catalog of these scales? I wonder if the
> {2,3,7,13} tone group would be worth exploring on this basis.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@y...> wrote:
> The assumption behind at least one brand of music theory,
> Mr. Forster, is that those who move frets do not do so
> haphazardly, but unknowingly follow (to some degree of

I took part in a discussion on the frets of the Persian tar on MMM.
The immediate result was an attack on my teacher without any
consideration on context.

I will limit my questions and discussion concerning Persian music to
actual practitioners of the music. I would not be surprised if the
same is happening with other students of Middle Eastern music that may
be lurking here.

Hello Paolo,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "paolovalladolid" <phv40@h...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@y...> wrote:
> > The assumption behind at least one brand of music theory,
> > Mr. Forster, is that those who move frets do not do so
> > haphazardly, but unknowingly follow (to some degree of
>
> I took part in a discussion on the frets of the Persian tar on MMM.
> The immediate result was an attack on my teacher without any
> consideration on context.

I remember that thread but not the attack you're referring to.

> I will limit my questions and discussion concerning Persian music
> to actual practitioners of the music. I would not be surprised if
> the same is happening with other students of Middle Eastern music
> that may be lurking here.

I'm not sure what you're saying here -- care to clarify? Note
that I haven't said anything at all about Middle Eastern music.

-Carl

I merely made a comment about the use of 24 ET. the only context i had was the one that you provided, and accepted the context you provided later.
it i was not meant as an attack but as a differing opinion as stated by numerous practitioners, some of which i have spoken in person to.
That one cannot quote what some of these actual practitioners of persian music write seems a bit absurd.
We are all aware of different 'schools', and such and we are more than interested in hearing what they have to say. but they have to say it.
to reduce the argument to name calling and avoidance of any real data , does a disservice to all concerned.
I am still waiting for writers to point out counter arguments the difference that they all seem to agree.
Touma, who collected music for unesco has had his book 'Music of the Arab People '
dismissed on this list as being an ameteur.

the most frequented document on my website is Ivor derregs. translation of a russian of a persdian texts on djami (letter by derrig is included )
http://anaphoria.com/djamidarreg.PDF
I sometimes get as many as 500 visits a week, and from what i can tell, it is not coming from here.

There are persian practioners who now play 12 ET also, for better or worse.
there are those that play 24 ET. the latter i still have a hard time finding recording of.

tuning@yahoogroups.com wrote:

> Message: 2
>
> Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 15:05:53 -0000
> From: "paolovalladolid" <phv40@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re: The Modern Turkish Tunbur of Mes'ud Ekrem Cemil Bey Tel
>
>--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@y...> wrote:
> >
>>The assumption behind at least one brand of music theory,
>>Mr. Forster, is that those who move frets do not do so
>>haphazardly, but unknowingly follow (to some degree of
>> >>
>
>I took part in a discussion on the frets of the Persian tar on MMM. >The immediate result was an attack on my teacher without any
>consideration on context.
>
>I will limit my questions and discussion concerning Persian music to
>actual practitioners of the music. I would not be surprised if the
>same is happening with other students of Middle Eastern music that may
>be lurking here.
>
>
> >
--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles