Modern Turkish Tunbur and 53-TET Revisited

From the liner notes of the Ocora Radio France CD:

Turquie: L'art du tanbûr, [by] Talip Özkan

******************************

p. 14 -- " ... On the neck, there are 48 or 49 movable frets, which
allow a very exact measure for every interval so that the _tanbûr_
is well suited for the study of musical theory. ... "

******************************

My intent in Figure 80 of

http://www.Chrysalis-Foundation.org/Modern_Turkish_Tunbur_&_53_TET.pdf

was _not_ to make the frets of the tunbur immoveable.

Cris Forster, Music Director
www.Chrysalis-Foundation.org

http://www.Chrysalis-Foundation.org/musical_mathematics.htm

The Tanbur is most unsuited to the study of musical theory, because of the very fact that frets are moved at will without regard for a wholesome theoretical approach. If one wants to learn the perde-system of Maqam Music, one needs to analyze the Ney, the only principal fixed-tuning instrument of high renown that can be taken as basis. And for that matter, one should take a look at the research made by Can Akkoc on pitch-cluster analysis of Ney and Kemencha.

Besides, 30-40 desatin on the neck were per octave.

----- Original Message -----
From: Cris Forster
To: Tuning
Sent: 14 Haziran 2005 Salı 19:23
Subject: [tuning] Modern Turkish Tunbur and 53-TET Revisited

>From the liner notes of the Ocora Radio France CD:

Turquie: L'art du tanbûr, [by] Talip Özkan

******************************

p. 14 -- " ... On the neck, there are 48 or 49 movable frets, which
allow a very exact measure for every interval so that the _tanbûr_
is well suited for the study of musical theory. ... "

******************************

My intent in Figure 80 of

http://www.Chrysalis-Foundation.org/Modern_Turkish_Tunbur_&_53_TET.pdf

was _not_ to make the frets of the tunbur immoveable.

Cris Forster, Music Director
www.Chrysalis-Foundation.org

http://www.Chrysalis-Foundation.org/musical_mathematics.htm

> Besides, 30-40 desatin on the neck were per octave.

On the cover of the Ocora Radio France CD --

Turquie: L'art du tanbûr, [by] Talip Özkan

a photograph of the neck and frets of Mr. Özkan's tunbur clearly
indicates otherwise; and his music clearly indicates otherwise as
well.

Cris Forster, Music Director
www.Chrysalis-Foundation.org

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@s...> wrote:
> The Tanbur is most unsuited to the study of musical theory,
because of the very fact that frets are moved at will without regard
for a wholesome theoretical approach. If one wants to learn the
perde-system of Maqam Music, one needs to analyze the Ney, the only
principal fixed-tuning instrument of high renown that can be taken
as basis. And for that matter, one should take a look at the
research made by Can Akkoc on pitch-cluster analysis of Ney and
Kemencha.
>
> Besides, 30-40 desatin on the neck were per octave.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Cris Forster
> To: Tuning
> Sent: 14 Haziran 2005 Salý 19:23
> Subject: [tuning] Modern Turkish Tunbur and 53-TET Revisited
>
>
> >From the liner notes of the Ocora Radio France CD:
>
> Turquie: L'art du tanbûr, [by] Talip Özkan
>
> ******************************
>
> p. 14 -- " ... On the neck, there are 48 or 49 movable frets,
which
> allow a very exact measure for every interval so that the
_tanbûr_
> is well suited for the study of musical theory. ... "
>
> ******************************
>
> My intent in Figure 80 of
>
> http://www.Chrysalis-
Foundation.org/Modern_Turkish_Tunbur_&_53_TET.pdf
>
> was _not_ to make the frets of the tunbur immoveable.
>
>
> Cris Forster, Music Director
> www.Chrysalis-Foundation.org
>
>
> http://www.Chrysalis-Foundation.org/musical_mathematics.htm

Presumptuous still are we? And who may be Talip Ozkan? There are more renown Tanbur virtuosos in Turkey such as Nejdet Yashar and the late Erjumend Batanay. Are we to promote more recent examples in favor of celebrated masters? And are we to get lost in trifles that have no bearing for Maqam Music?

----- Original Message -----
From: c_ml_forster
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 14 Haziran 2005 Salı 20:47
Subject: [tuning] Re: Modern Turkish Tunbur and 53-TET Revisited

> Besides, 30-40 desatin on the neck were per octave.

On the cover of the Ocora Radio France CD --

Turquie: L'art du tanbûr, [by] Talip Özkan

a photograph of the neck and frets of Mr. Özkan's tunbur clearly
indicates otherwise; and his music clearly indicates otherwise as
well.

Cris Forster, Music Director
www.Chrysalis-Foundation.org

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@s...> wrote:
> The Tanbur is most unsuited to the study of musical theory, because
of the very fact that frets are moved at will without regard for a
wholesome theoretical approach.

I regret that I am unfamiliar with the identification of a
music-theoretical approach as either "wholesome" or not. Theories of
music can be useful or not, and they can be convincing or not, and the
usefulness and power to convince of a given theory may be local or
global. As far as I can imagine, music theories cannot carry much in
the way of morals, e.g. "wholesome"-ness, in contrast to the way that
music itself might, but this may only indicate some limit to my
imagination and I would happily hear an argument to the contrary.

That said, as someone with adequate traveling papers in
ethnomusicology, I am a bit astonished by the viewpoint expressed
above. You appear to be committed to a project in which a theoretical
model has priority over the practice of musician, rather than letting
theory and practice inform each other. A review of your postings has
not made it clear as to whether your project is descriptive or
prescriptive or nature, and I would be delighted by some clarification.

Finally, I find your blanket dismisal of the issue of fret placement
to be curious. If I were interested in determining the pitch
preferences of musicians whose work moves me -- in a wholesome way or
otherwise -- I would surely find the aural and intuitive placement of
moveable frets to be a considerable source of information. While the
intonation set by frets is certainly subject to a degree of
variability, the variability of wind pressure, embouchure, and angle
of air stream, as well as the placement, angle, and diameter of holes
renders the intonation of wind instruments inevitably more variable
that that of fretted instruments.

Daniel Wolf
Budapest

----- Original Message -----
From: djwolf_frankfurt
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 15 Haziran 2005 Çarşamba 0:57
Subject: [tuning] Re: Modern Turkish Tunbur and 53-TET Revisited

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@s...> wrote:
> The Tanbur is most unsuited to the study of musical theory, because
of the very fact that frets are moved at will without regard for a
wholesome theoretical approach.

I regret that I am unfamiliar with the identification of a
music-theoretical approach as either "wholesome" or not. Theories of
music can be useful or not, and they can be convincing or not, and the
usefulness and power to convince of a given theory may be local or
global. As far as I can imagine, music theories cannot carry much in
the way of morals, e.g. "wholesome"-ness, in contrast to the way that
music itself might, but this may only indicate some limit to my
imagination and I would happily hear an argument to the contrary.

Ah. I should have known this was coming. My argument was directed simply at the "correctness" and "consistency" of a theory that attempts to explain a musical genre. But you seem to have missed my point.

That said, as someone with adequate traveling papers in
ethnomusicology, I am a bit astonished by the viewpoint expressed
above. You appear to be committed to a project in which a theoretical
model has priority over the practice of musician, rather than letting
theory and practice inform each other. A review of your postings has
not made it clear as to whether your project is descriptive or
prescriptive or nature, and I would be delighted by some clarification.

Astoundingly enough, you missed my point again. The theoretical model should be elegantly designed with actual practice in mind. Any approximations to the real must be carefully thought of, and nothing should be left to chance. We have all to frequently seen the results of the indoctrinations of Arel-Ezgi and their followers. The comma-deal is almost sacred and defies argument in the minds of bigots. As a consequence, many masters have succumbed to the requirements of their own teachings even if it meant complete abandon of rational methodology.

I do not care about personal preferances here, it is the entirety of Maqam Music that I'm concerned about. Some people have gone all the way trying to restrict and mold this music according to their whims. I do not wish to repeat the same mistake, nor wish to see the same mistake repeated.

Finally, I find your blanket dismisal of the issue of fret placement
to be curious. If I were interested in determining the pitch
preferences of musicians whose work moves me -- in a wholesome way or
otherwise -- I would surely find the aural and intuitive placement of
moveable frets to be a considerable source of information. While the
intonation set by frets is certainly subject to a degree of
variability, the variability of wind pressure, embouchure, and angle
of air stream, as well as the placement, angle, and diameter of holes
renders the intonation of wind instruments inevitably more variable
that that of fretted instruments.

Dismissal? Where on earth do I dismiss the imporance of fret placement? Why, it is a most fundamental issue that no sane musician can defy. It is merely the practice of tying knots to the neck nonchalantly that worries me. There can be no clean methodology if you start moving or increasing the number of the desatin the more you realize you need to do so. Have you asked, in your travels, why certain instruments are fretted the way they are? How many musicians know for sure? Or is it all too common to take frets for granted? Have you been to Turkey by the way?

A `sound` system should be able explain all the pitches used in a rational, consistent, wholesome (reasonable) manner. Arel-Ezgi theory, or their predecessors for that matter, do not seem to be doing so. We have measured consistently that current theory and practice are incompatible with each other, and something must be done about it very soon.

Daniel Wolf
Budapest

Ozan Yarman
Istanbul

Dear Mr. Wolf,

Exactly right!

When you have a chance please visit:

http://www.Chrysalis-Foundation.org/flute_tone_holes.htm

Thank you very much for your well-informed acoustic analysis.

Cris Forster, Music Director
wwww.Chrysalis-Foundation.org

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "djwolf_frankfurt" <djwolf@s...>
wrote:
>While the
> intonation set by frets is certainly subject to a degree of
> variability, the variability of wind pressure, embouchure, and
angle
> of air stream, as well as the placement, angle, and diameter of
holes
> renders the intonation of wind instruments inevitably more variable
> that that of fretted instruments.
>
> Daniel Wolf
> Budapest

Dear Mr. Yarman,

You don't know the man, Talip Özkan,
and yet you compare him to other men?

And even if you did know Talip Özkan,
you _would_ compare him to other men?

You don't intimidate me at all.
For that matter, nobody intimidates me.

Cris Forster

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@s...> wrote:
> Presumptuous still are we? And who may be Talip Ozkan? There are
more renown Tanbur virtuosos in Turkey such as Nejdet Yashar and the
late Erjumend Batanay. Are we to promote more recent examples in
favor of celebrated masters? And are we to get lost in trifles that
have no bearing for Maqam Music?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: c_ml_forster
> To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: 14 Haziran 2005 Salý 20:47
> Subject: [tuning] Re: Modern Turkish Tunbur and 53-TET Revisited
>
>
> > Besides, 30-40 desatin on the neck were per octave.
>
>
>
>
> On the cover of the Ocora Radio France CD --
>
> Turquie: L'art du tanbûr, [by] Talip Özkan
>
> a photograph of the neck and frets of Mr. Özkan's tunbur clearly
> indicates otherwise; and his music clearly indicates otherwise
as
> well.
>
>
> Cris Forster, Music Director
> www.Chrysalis-Foundation.org

Presumptuous is as presumptuous does.
Vanity cannot calculate MOS,
No, it is not another version of DOS,
But it may be the cure to our problems.

Needless praises and flattery,
So loud as drums and battery,
And annoying like clanking cutlery,
Is so alien to us mordacious moslems.

----- Original Message -----
From: c_ml_forster
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 15 Haziran 2005 Çarşamba 5:20
Subject: [tuning] Re: Modern Turkish Tunbur and 53-TET Revisited

Dear Mr. Yarman,

You don't know the man, Talip Özkan,
and yet you compare him to other men?

And even if you did know Talip Özkan,
you _would_ compare him to other men?

You don't intimidate me at all.
For that matter, nobody intimidates me.

Cris Forster

Hello Daniel (and Ozan),

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "djwolf_frankfurt" <djwolf@s...> wrote:

> Finally, I find your blanket dismisal of the issue of
> fret placement to be curious. If I were interested in
> determining the pitch preferences of musicians whose work
> moves me -- in a wholesome way or otherwise -- I would
> surely find the aural and intuitive placement of
> moveable frets to be a considerable source of information.
> While the intonation set by frets is certainly subject to
> a degree of variability, the variability of wind pressure,
> embouchure, and angle of air stream, as well as the placement,
> angle, and diameter of holes renders the intonation of wind
> instruments inevitably more variable that that of fretted
> instruments.

Indeed, i agree with what you write here. However, Ozan
cited one work which specifically indicates that his
dismissal of fret placement was not a blanket one --
Can Akkoc's paper is a fascinating statistical analysis
of music actually performed by Turkish masters.

-monz
http://tonalsoft.com
Tonescape microtonal music software

Statistical analysis is not a good measure in that it does not tell you when a certain pitch is used and in what context.
This music with it constant change of scale and mode, and what have, would rely on extended references of pitch.
Also what pitch a performer uses in a quick passage is ignored as is always more susceptible to more variation.
There is also the subject of unexplained cultural intonational practices that exist merely through the use of some ones ear in certain types of passages.
In the west we will find a different intonation used in say in the pastoral sym than in prokofievs fifth pino concerto.
also the practive of intonation at cadences results in different cultural cues being used. Certain chord progression invoke different cues that the performer excercises if capable on their instrument.
Hello Daniel (and Ozan),

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "djwolf_frankfurt" <djwolf@s...> wrote:

>> Finally, I find your blanket dismisal of the issue of
>> fret placement to be curious. If I were interested in
>> determining the pitch preferences of musicians whose work
>> moves me -- in a wholesome way or otherwise -- I would
>> surely find the aural and intuitive placement of
>> moveable frets to be a considerable source of information.
>> While the intonation set by frets is certainly subject to
>> a degree of variability, the variability of wind pressure,
>> embouchure, and angle of air stream, as well as the placement,
>> angle, and diameter of holes renders the intonation of wind
>> instruments inevitably more variable that that of fretted
>> instruments.
> >

Indeed, i agree with what you write here. However, Ozan
cited one work which specifically indicates that his
dismissal of fret placement was not a blanket one --
Can Akkoc's paper is a fascinating statistical analysis
of music actually performed by Turkish masters.

-monz
http://tonalsoft.com
Tonescape microtonal music software

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

Monz, some people just want to believe that the idea of movable frets is an admirable ingenuity that shows a "spirit of independence", while it is obvious that such a necessity comes from the inability of determining the sum total of correct JI intervals needed for Maqams at every degree of transposition.

It shocks me how some cannot grasp the dimensions of the disaster involved with such an insubstantial/crude/vain approach. Equally baffling is their blank dismissal of the necessity for a clever temperament that can successfully deal with all required variables reasonably and powerfully.

Cordially,
Ozan

----- Original Message -----
From: monz
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 15 Haziran 2005 Çarşamba 10:39
Subject: [tuning] Re: Modern Turkish Tunbur and 53-TET Revisited

Hello Daniel (and Ozan),

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "djwolf_frankfurt" <djwolf@s...> wrote:

> Finally, I find your blanket dismisal of the issue of
> fret placement to be curious. If I were interested in
> determining the pitch preferences of musicians whose work
> moves me -- in a wholesome way or otherwise -- I would
> surely find the aural and intuitive placement of
> moveable frets to be a considerable source of information.
> While the intonation set by frets is certainly subject to
> a degree of variability, the variability of wind pressure,
> embouchure, and angle of air stream, as well as the placement,
> angle, and diameter of holes renders the intonation of wind
> instruments inevitably more variable that that of fretted
> instruments.

Indeed, i agree with what you write here. However, Ozan
cited one work which specifically indicates that his
dismissal of fret placement was not a blanket one --
Can Akkoc's paper is a fascinating statistical analysis
of music actually performed by Turkish masters.

-monz
http://tonalsoft.com
Tonescape microtonal music software

> Statistical analysis is not a good measure in that it does
> not tell you when a certain pitch is used and in what context.
> This music with it constant change of scale and mode, and what
> have, would rely on extended references of pitch.
> Also what pitch a performer uses in a quick passage is ignored
> as is always more susceptible to more variation.
> There is also the subject of unexplained cultural intonational
> practices that exist merely through the use of some ones ear in
> certain types of passages.
> In the west we will find a different intonation used in say in
> the pastoral sym than in prokofievs fifth pino concerto.
> also the practive of intonation at cadences results in different
> cultural cues being used. Certain chord progression invoke
> different cues that the performer excercises if capable on their
> instrument.

That's a good point, Kraig, but you're making assumptions
about how the analysis is performed. The mistakes you detail
above are not a *necessity* of such analysis, and in fact have
nothing to do with statistics at all.

Can Akkoc is a very astute theorist, and you should read his
paper before dismissing it.

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@y...> wrote:

> Can Akkoc is a very astute theorist, and you should read his
> paper before dismissing it.

Do you have a url? He has a web page link on some old postings, but it
doesn't seem to work.

A mid east musican who i have quoted before , states that he can tell
the where a musician is from within 20 miles by his use of ornaments
and his intonation.
Also a quote form Dariush Tala'i
" however, because the intonation that results from tempering the
intervals always bothers the best musicians, the frets on the tar and
the setar have always remained movable.
This moveability allows the musicans to adjust them for each
performance, so that the most suitable tuning is achieved for each
combination of modes.

from
the intergral repertory of Persian Art Music
Radif
Volumes 1-5
Al sur

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@s...> wrote:
> Monz, some people just want to believe that the idea of movable
frets is an admirable ingenuity that shows a "spirit of independence",
while it is obvious that such a necessity comes from the inability of
determining the sum total of correct JI intervals needed for Maqams at
every degree of transposition.
>
> It shocks me how some cannot grasp the dimensions of the disaster
involved with such an insubstantial/crude/vain approach. Equally
baffling is their blank dismissal of the necessity for a clever
temperament that can successfully deal with all required variables
reasonably and powerfully.
>
> Cordially,
> Ozan
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: monz
> To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: 15 Haziran 2005 Çarþamba 10:39
> Subject: [tuning] Re: Modern Turkish Tunbur and 53-TET Revisited
>
>
> Hello Daniel (and Ozan),
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "djwolf_frankfurt" <djwolf@s...> wrote:
>
> > Finally, I find your blanket dismisal of the issue of
> > fret placement to be curious. If I were interested in
> > determining the pitch preferences of musicians whose work
> > moves me -- in a wholesome way or otherwise -- I would
> > surely find the aural and intuitive placement of
> > moveable frets to be a considerable source of information.
> > While the intonation set by frets is certainly subject to
> > a degree of variability, the variability of wind pressure,
> > embouchure, and angle of air stream, as well as the placement,
> > angle, and diameter of holes renders the intonation of wind
> > instruments inevitably more variable that that of fretted
> > instruments.
>
>
>
> Indeed, i agree with what you write here. However, Ozan
> cited one work which specifically indicates that his
> dismissal of fret placement was not a blanket one --
> Can Akkoc's paper is a fascinating statistical analysis
> of music actually performed by Turkish masters.
>
>
>
> -monz
> http://tonalsoft.com
> Tonescape microtonal music software

you assume i have not. and i believe he is still working toward final
conclusions about his work. i did not take his paper as being even his
own final word on the subject.
while others mistakenly do.
the very construction of the music opens it up toward extended
referance if you listen to it where the music branches off into
temporary regions of scales and modes.
quite beautiful and shows how this culture has develop the use of
many such scales and modes in mutual coexistance.
>
> That's a good point, Kraig, but you're making assumptions
> about how the analysis is performed. The mistakes you detail
> above are not a *necessity* of such analysis, and in fact have
> nothing to do with statistics at all.
>
> Can Akkoc is a very astute theorist, and you should read his
> paper before dismissing it.
>
> -Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "banaphshu" <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:

> Also a quote form Dariush Tala'i
> " however, because the intonation that results from tempering the
> intervals always bothers the best musicians, the frets on the tar and
> the setar have always remained movable.

If the intonation resulting from tempering bothers the best musicians,
either the tempering isn't very good or the intonation should really
be JI. If the latter, then shouldn't it be possible to give a catalog
of what these scales are, in JI terms?