Re: [tuning] Digest Number 3552

Thank you Ozan for clarifying what has been going on with your pursuit of this subject. Message: 5 Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:19:51 +0300
From: "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@superonline.com>
Subject: 53tET is not the right system for Maqam Music Notation

Hello Kraig,

I wish not to be misunderstood. 53tET has indeed a long history in Turkey. But its wide-spread usage in music institutions all over the country is pretty recent, going only as far past as two decades I believe. The reason is due to the fact that secterianism between the Kemalist puritans and Maqam Music advocates (who are separated into many sects themselves) reached its pinnacle during late 1970s, whereby the tide turned in favor of Maqam Music to the detriment Kemalists, resulting in the foundation of the first convervatory primarily geared for Maqam Music education. Yes, you guessed right, it is the conservatory where I am pursuing my doctorate career now.

*I imagine this is a hotbed of activity!

The whole business of commas come into play because of the need to identify pitches unique to Turkish Maqam Music (and incidentally, Folk Music). * it seems there is some differences in Tuning practices in the different areas in regard to the folk music. At least i have noticed such.

Why else would a Turkish Nationalist school based on Western atonality (or crooked forms of tonality for that matter), require 53tET especially when all their symphony orchestras and chamber music ensembles are educated to play by only 12-tones? Why would they need to learn microtonality when all they can do is play Western Classical Music in their pompous concert halls crowded by hapless audiences?

Microtonality? None of the Westernized musicians here know how to go about it. I myself have experienced an ignominous defeat by their hands when my own amateurish microtonal composition was brutalized the previous year.

* Boy, do i know that one!!!

Thus, the application of 53tET was limited to theory books and articles written by eccentric theorists who were lucky to find a bunch of musicians that they were able to educate.

Today, however, the "comma" has been robbed of its functional status, and instead, is frequently used to refer to the "smallest conceived audible interval that makes a difference". It is therefore employed by those who care about music beyond 12-tones. Apparently, Arel-Ezgi theory was the culprit for the "scourge of the comma" around these parts. Fortunately, the majority of the Arabs succumbed to the "quarter-tone" instead. For gosh sakes, Maqam musicians here cannot think in other terms, but the comma! Yet, it makes no difference to anyone whether the sound system, knowingly or unknowingly, implemented is actually 53tET or not. For one thing, they don't even know any comma other than ditonic. They are not even aware as to how a pure third ought to be expressed. Their scorn for meantone temperaments, without realizing their depth, is truly astonishing. I was apalled by the fact that one of the eldest and greatest Qanun makers in Turkey-Izmir had consigned to 100 cents for the semitones. I was shocked to learn of it when the first Qanun I acquired from him was so built. It was equally apalling to learn that one of the greatest Qanun virtuosos of Turkey, Ruhi Ayangil, is the possessor of Qanuns that have their latches affixed at 100 cents per semitone. * this is happening the world over. Hugh tracy mentioned when he was collecting tunings and music in africa, he never found anything like the major scale. Now we have thousands of guitars, and this is what many think of as African music. 'Twas but madness to be ignorant, or worse, uncaring of such a thing. I immediately discovered the problem that could not be resolved by simple tuning tricks, and ordered another Qanun as a replacement. Even then, I had to specify my exact intentions despite the fact that I was a genuine ignoramus in tuning back then, and realized later on that I had specified 70tET by instinct.

*not too far from 72

My observations tell me, that 60tET is inferred today even when thinking and talking in terms of 53tET. Thus, the distinction between a 4-comma sharp and 5-comma sharp has already dissapeared, resulting in a chaos that awaits immediate resolution for the sake of Maqam Music education. Ignorance and ineptitude has reached unbelievable levels it seems.

* well this would make sense yto me if you have a 53 tone system right next to a 12. you adjust tjhe smallest interval to also land on the same degrees as the western scale. There is allot of territory between Turkey and 12 ET as you have greece and quite a bit of eastern europe that have sclaes closer to the eastern countries than say france and britan. Why would a meantone fifth be chosen for drones and pedal tones? It is required simply for the correct notation of Rast. And besides, I aim to make use of it only with the Qanuns, and consign it to paper in theory. Of course the ear wants to hear the pure fifth resonating. I cannot help it if Western Staff Notation has no provisions for the distinction between Rast and Suz-i Dilara. If I am to think in terms of 53tET, or 159tET for that matter, I have to specify a "comma-flat" for the 3rd, 6th and 7th degrees for the Rast Maqam. Do you find it correct that the "Mother of All Maqams" is expressed with flats in the key signature while Suz-i Dilara is not? Meantone is the way to the rescue out of this mess, and I don't give a darn anymore if the fifth is way too flat to achieve the near-correct pitches.

* here i kinda lose you as it almost sound your choice of an new intonation is due to notation? if your base scale requires flats is no differ than a 5-limit just major scale. helmholtz is a good example of this. i admit it bothers me but one does what one can to get the sound, and damn what it looks like on paper. But i bet i am missing something here!
Erv carried out his system to 65, which shows how many different directions one can go!

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--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

----- Original Message -----
From: Kraig Grady
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 14 Haziran 2005 Salı 9:30
Subject: Re: [tuning] Digest Number 3552

Thank you Ozan for clarifying what has been going on with your pursuit of this subject.

You are most welcome.

Message: 5
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:19:51 +0300
From: "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@superonline.com>
Subject: 53tET is not the right system for Maqam Music Notation

Hello Kraig,

I wish not to be misunderstood. 53tET has indeed a long history in Turkey. But its wide-spread usage in music institutions all over the country is pretty recent, going only as far past as two decades I believe. The reason is due to the fact that secterianism between the Kemalist puritans and Maqam Music advocates (who are separated into many sects themselves) reached its pinnacle during late 1970s, whereby the tide turned in favor of Maqam Music to the detriment Kemalists, resulting in the foundation of the first convervatory primarily geared for Maqam Music education. Yes, you guessed right, it is the conservatory where I am pursuing my doctorate career now.

*I imagine this is a hotbed of activity!

More than you know. It's broiling here.

The whole business of commas come into play because of the need to identify pitches unique to Turkish Maqam Music (and incidentally, Folk Music).

* it seems there is some differences in Tuning practices in the different areas in regard to the folk music. At least i have noticed such.

Folk Music instruments apply various tunings in their pursuit of finding the correct Maqam pitches. But the most popular tuning for the baglama is 53tET once again. Folk pieces even have a notation of sharps and flats with comma numbers. Guess I'll never evade the unevasive comma afterall.

Why else would a Turkish Nationalist school based on Western atonality (or crooked forms of tonality for that matter), require 53tET especially when all their symphony orchestras and chamber music ensembles are educated to play by only 12-tones? Why would they need to learn microtonality when all they can do is play Western Classical Music in their pompous concert halls crowded by hapless audiences?

Microtonality? None of the Westernized musicians here know how to go about it. I myself have experienced an ignominous defeat by their hands when my own amateurish microtonal composition was brutalized the previous year.

* Boy, do i know that one!!!

Doesn't everyone by now?

Thus, the application of 53tET was limited to theory books and articles written by eccentric theorists who were lucky to find a bunch of musicians that they were able to educate.

Today, however, the "comma" has been robbed of its functional status, and instead, is frequently used to refer to the "smallest conceived audible interval that makes a difference". It is therefore employed by those who care about music beyond 12-tones. Apparently, Arel-Ezgi theory was the culprit for the "scourge of the comma" around these parts. Fortunately, the majority of the Arabs succumbed to the "quarter-tone" instead.

For gosh sakes, Maqam musicians here cannot think in other terms, but the comma! Yet, it makes no difference to anyone whether the sound system, knowingly or unknowingly, implemented is actually 53tET or not. For one thing, they don't even know any comma other than ditonic. They are not even aware as to how a pure third ought to be expressed. Their scorn for meantone temperaments, without realizing their depth, is truly astonishing.

I was apalled by the fact that one of the eldest and greatest Qanun makers in Turkey-Izmir had consigned to 100 cents for the semitones. I was shocked to learn of it when the first Qanun I acquired from him was so built. It was equally apalling to learn that one of the greatest Qanun virtuosos of Turkey, Ruhi Ayangil, is the possessor of Qanuns that have their latches affixed at 100 cents per semitone.

* this is happening the world over. Hugh tracy mentioned when he was collecting tunings and music in africa, he never found anything like the major scale. Now we have thousands of guitars, and this is what many think of as African music.

Somebody has got to stop it!!! 12tET fuels ignorance of tuning and theory while ruining the innate beauty of authentic genres. I still remember my quarrel with a pompous Germanophile who thought that Western Harmony was a sign of modernity and thus should be tought to every music student in Turkey. As if Western Harmony based on 12 notes is compatible with Maqam Music! He received a `sound-beating` from me alright.

'Twas but madness to be ignorant, or worse, uncaring of such a thing. I immediately discovered the problem that could not be resolved by simple tuning tricks, and ordered another Qanun as a replacement. Even then, I had to specify my exact intentions despite the fact that I was a genuine ignoramus in tuning back then, and realized later on that I had specified 70tET by instinct.

*not too far from 72

Please! I hate the idea of enharmonical equivalance of sharps and flats at so high a resolution. 70 was and still is good enough. A much much better tuning would be this 79 Mos. I'm very much sure of it from now on.

My observations tell me, that 60tET is inferred today even when thinking and talking in terms of 53tET. Thus, the distinction between a 4-comma sharp and 5-comma sharp has already dissapeared, resulting in a chaos that awaits immediate resolution for the sake of Maqam Music education. Ignorance and ineptitude has reached unbelievable levels it seems.

* well this would make sense yto me if you have a 53 tone system right next to a 12. you adjust tjhe smallest interval to also land on the same degrees as the western scale. There is allot of territory between Turkey and 12 ET as you have greece and quite a bit of eastern europe that have sclaes closer to the eastern countries than say france and britan.

Yet, history of Westernization in Turkey goes as far back as 180 years. I wonder if the bones of the perpetrators of this mess turn in their graves everytime I think of them?

Why would a meantone fifth be chosen for drones and pedal tones? It is required simply for the correct notation of Rast. And besides, I aim to make use of it only with the Qanuns, and consign it to paper in theory. Of course the ear wants to hear the pure fifth resonating. I cannot help it if Western Staff Notation has no provisions for the distinction between Rast and Suz-i Dilara. If I am to think in terms of 53tET, or 159tET for that matter, I have to specify a "comma-flat" for the 3rd, 6th and 7th degrees for the Rast Maqam. Do you find it correct that the "Mother of All Maqams" is expressed with flats in the key signature while Suz-i Dilara is not?
Meantone is the way to the rescue out of this mess, and I don't give a darn anymore if the fifth is way too flat to achieve the near-correct pitches.

* here i kinda lose you as it almost sound your choice of an new intonation is due to notation? if your base scale requires flats is no differ than a 5-limit just major scale. helmholtz is a good example of this. i admit it bothers me but one does what one can to get the sound, and damn what it looks like on paper.
But i bet i am missing something here!
Erv carried out his system to 65, which shows how many different directions one can go!

Yes, it is due to correct notation of correct pitches for the principal maqam. On paper and Qanuns only! 79 Mos is still a crude approximation of Just Intonation, and is the smallest resolution that can be tolerated.