Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning Modern Turkish Tunbur and 53-TET

The nationality of Al-Farabi it not known. It is only Turkish chauvanism that makes us believe he is of Turkish descent. Other, perhaps more reliable, sources indicate that he may be Persian. It stands to reason, seeing as there is not one darn Turkish philosopher in the entire world history worth mentioning. Apparently nomads don't rear philosophers, and the only thing they know best is war-mongering.

Here is an excerpt from http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Al_Farabi:

----------------------

There is no consensus or sufficient evidence to decide the matter of al-Farabi's ethnic origins. The existing variations in the basic facts about al-Farabi's origins and pedigree indicate that they were not recorded during his lifetime or soon thereafter by anyone with concrete information, but were rather based on hearsay or probable guesses.

Some historians thus claim Farabi was born in the small village of Wasij near Farab (in what is today Turkmenistan) of Persian parents. The older Persian form Parab is given in the historical account Hodud al-'alam for his birthplace. Ibn al-Nadim, among other historians, however states Farabi's origins (in ed. Flügel p. 263 l. 9) to lie in Faryab in Khorasan ("men al-Faryab men ardhµ Khorasan"). Very little is thus known of al-Farabi's life for certain and whether or not he was of Turkic origin or not. Wasij was a village near Farab in Central Asia and the birthplace of the Persian scientist al-Farabi. ... The Shiite scholar Ibn al-Nadim (Abu al-Faraj Muhammad ibn Ishaq ibn Muhammad ibn Ishaq, died September 17, 995 or 998) was the author of the Kitab al-Fihrist, a bibliographic index of Arabic books, which he says he completed in 987-8CE. Of his life so little... Khorasan (also spelled Khurasan and Khorassan; ?????? in Persian) is an area, located in eastern and northeastern Iran. ... The Turkic people are any of various peoples whose members speak languages in the Turkic family of languages. ...

But what is known with certainty is that after finishing his early school years in Farab and Bukhara, Farabi arrived in Baghdad to pursue higher studies in 901. He studied under a Christian cleric who abandoned lay interests and engaged in his ecclesiastical duties, and he remained in Baghdad for well over 40 years and acquired mastery over several languages and fields of knowledge. Bukhara (?????? in Persian, Buxoro or ?????? in Uzbek (the Cyrillic alphabet was officially phased out for Uzbek after independence); ?????? in Russian; also Boxara in Tatar) is one of the major cities of Uzbekistan, and capital of the Bukhara region (Bukhoro Wiloyati). ... A street map of Baghdad Average temperature (red) and precipitations (blue) in Baghdad Baghdad (?????) is the capital of Iraq and the Baghdad Province. ... Events Mesoamerican ballgame court dedicated at Uxmal Kingdom of Taebong established in Korean peninsula Fuzhou city was expanded with construction of a new city wall (Luo City). Births Deaths February 18 - Thabit ibn Qurra, Arab astronomer and mathematician Categories: 901 ...

------------------

As to the matter of untempered pythagorean tuning for the tanbur... nothing can be more fallacious than claiming that Turkish tanburs contain only 24 desatin per octave. The Turkish tanburs harbor as many as 30-40 desatin, or else what is being performed is not Maqam Music at all. Anyone who has seen enough tanburs know this to be a fact.

Also, anyone who thinks Farabi or Safiyuddin were completely observant of what intervals were actually being performed is mistaken greatly.

The PDF file contains only copy/paste information that I would rather see dismissed on grounds of incompatibility with actual practice.

Cordially,

Ozan Yarman

----- Original Message -----
From: Cris Forster
To: Tuning
Sent: 13 Haziran 2005 Pazartesi 19:24
Subject: [tuning] Modern Turkish Tunbur and 53-TET

Dear Reader,

For those of you who may be wondering about the relationship
between modern Turkish tunbur tuning theory and 53-tone equal
temperament, I have posted several pages from my manuscript
Musical Mathematics: A Practice in the Mathematics of Tuning
Instruments and Analyzing Scales, Chapter 11, at

http://www.Chrysalis-Foundation.org/Modern_Turkish_Tunbur_&_53_TET.pdf

You may also access this post by clicking

http://www.Chrysalis-Foundation.org > M.M. Pages > Turkish Tunbur

Sincerely,

Cris Forster, Music Director
www.Chrysalis-Foundation.org

http://www.Chrysalis-Foundation.org/musical_mathematics.htm

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🔗c_ml_forster <76153.763@compuserve.com>

My research from original sources (La Musique Arabe) indicates that
many Arabian and Persian modes from the days of Ibn Sina, Al-Farabi,
and Safi Al-Din have not changed for up to a thousand years. One
cannot discover this kind of continuity except through a Rational
Ratio Analysis of how these theorists tuned their uds and/or tunburs
and comparing this data to modern research done by Farhat, Signell,
Racy, etc. It is a great pity that anachronisms perpetrated by
logarithmic calculations obscure and confound these profoundly great
musical and oral traditions.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@s...> wrote:
> The nationality of Al-Farabi it not known. It is only Turkish
chauvanism that makes us believe he is of Turkish descent. Other,
perhaps more reliable, sources indicate that he may be Persian. It
stands to reason, seeing as there is not one darn Turkish
philosopher in the entire world history worth mentioning. Apparently
nomads don't rear philosophers, and the only thing they know best is
war-mongering.
>
> Here is an excerpt from
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Al_Farabi:
>
>
>
> ----------------------
>
> There is no consensus or sufficient evidence to decide the matter
of al-Farabi's ethnic origins. The existing variations in the basic
facts about al-Farabi's origins and pedigree indicate that they were
not recorded during his lifetime or soon thereafter by anyone with
concrete information, but were rather based on hearsay or probable
guesses.
>
> Some historians thus claim Farabi was born in the small village of
Wasij near Farab (in what is today Turkmenistan) of Persian parents.
The older Persian form Parab is given in the historical account
Hodud al-'alam for his birthplace. Ibn al-Nadim, among other
historians, however states Farabi's origins (in ed. Flügel p. 263 l.
9) to lie in Faryab in Khorasan ("men al-Faryab men ardhµ
Khorasan"). Very little is thus known of al-Farabi's life for
certain and whether or not he was of Turkic origin or not. Wasij was
a village near Farab in Central Asia and the birthplace of the
Persian scientist al-Farabi. ... The Shiite scholar Ibn al-Nadim
(Abu al-Faraj Muhammad ibn Ishaq ibn Muhammad ibn Ishaq, died
September 17, 995 or 998) was the author of the Kitab al-Fihrist, a
bibliographic index of Arabic books, which he says he completed in
987-8CE. Of his life so little... Khorasan (also spelled Khurasan
and Khorassan; ?????? in Persian) is an area, located in eastern and
northeastern Iran. ... The Turkic people are any of various peoples
whose members speak languages in the Turkic family of languages. ...
>
> But what is known with certainty is that after finishing his early
school years in Farab and Bukhara, Farabi arrived in Baghdad to
pursue higher studies in 901. He studied under a Christian cleric
who abandoned lay interests and engaged in his ecclesiastical
duties, and he remained in Baghdad for well over 40 years and
acquired mastery over several languages and fields of knowledge.
Bukhara (?????? in Persian, Buxoro or ?????? in Uzbek (the Cyrillic
alphabet was officially phased out for Uzbek after
independence); ?????? in Russian; also Boxara in Tatar) is one of
the major cities of Uzbekistan, and capital of the Bukhara region
(Bukhoro Wiloyati). ... A street map of Baghdad Average temperature
(red) and precipitations (blue) in Baghdad Baghdad (?????) is the
capital of Iraq and the Baghdad Province. ... Events Mesoamerican
ballgame court dedicated at Uxmal Kingdom of Taebong established in
Korean peninsula Fuzhou city was expanded with construction of a new
city wall (Luo City). Births Deaths February 18 - Thabit ibn Qurra,
Arab astronomer and mathematician Categories: 901 ...
>
> ------------------
>
>
>
> As to the matter of untempered pythagorean tuning for the
tanbur... nothing can be more fallacious than claiming that Turkish
tanburs contain only 24 desatin per octave. The Turkish tanburs
harbor as many as 30-40 desatin, or else what is being performed is
not Maqam Music at all. Anyone who has seen enough tanburs know this
to be a fact.
>
> Also, anyone who thinks Farabi or Safiyuddin were completely
observant of what intervals were actually being performed is
mistaken greatly.
>
> The PDF file contains only copy/paste information that I would
rather see dismissed on grounds of incompatibility with actual
practice.
>
> Cordially,
>
> Ozan Yarman
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Cris Forster
> To: Tuning
> Sent: 13 Haziran 2005 Pazartesi 19:24
> Subject: [tuning] Modern Turkish Tunbur and 53-TET
>
>
> Dear Reader,
>
> For those of you who may be wondering about the relationship
> between modern Turkish tunbur tuning theory and 53-tone equal
> temperament, I have posted several pages from my manuscript
> Musical Mathematics: A Practice in the Mathematics of Tuning
> Instruments and Analyzing Scales, Chapter 11, at
>
> http://www.Chrysalis-
Foundation.org/Modern_Turkish_Tunbur_&_53_TET.pdf
>
>
> You may also access this post by clicking
>
> http://www.Chrysalis-Foundation.org > M.M. Pages > Turkish Tunbur
>
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Cris Forster, Music Director
> www.Chrysalis-Foundation.org
>
>
> http://www.Chrysalis-Foundation.org/musical_mathematics.htm
>
>
>
> You can configure your subscription by sending an empty email to
one
> of these addresses (from the address at which you receive the
list):
> tuning-subscribe@yahoogroups.com - join the tuning group.
> tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com - leave the group.
> tuning-nomail@yahoogroups.com - turn off mail from the group.
> tuning-digest@yahoogroups.com - set group to send daily
digests.
> tuning-normal@yahoogroups.com - set group to send individual
emails.
> tuning-help@yahoogroups.com - receive general help information.
>
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
> /tuning/
>
> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
of Service.

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@superonline.com>

Just because the `Pythagorean cycle of fifths` were deemed by some oriental theorists as an indispensible tool in explaining Maqam scales does not mean that they were any the more concerned with explaining actual pitches observed throughout the geography they inhabited.

And for that matter, many theorists were obviously not great musicians themselves. If they are praised for their musical talent, it is only a justification on the part of their predecessors who wished nothing other than glorifying a timeless past, and thus glorify themselves. Obviously, false pretensions to humility is all too common an attitude in the civilizations of the East. How many here know that Pythagoras was considered a prophet by the ancient intelligentsia of Islam (Aristoteleans and Platonists) in order to justify the importance of their diverse philosophical schools of thought and to salvage their works from the onslaught of bigots?

Deeper research indicates that pompous remarks and flattering references aiming to justify what cannot be justified are quite uncreditable, if not baseless. It is not surprising to see that the tradition of unctuousness has taken roots in some other parts of the world as well. To claim that a musical tradition remains unperturbed throughout a millenium is equal to claiming that Europe is still stuck in the Middle Ages. Such is not the case of course.

Maqam Music, which has flourished greatly all this time since, now requires a theory that can measure up to its fascinatingly articulate nature.

Cordially,
Ozan Yarman

Note: It is a fallacy to express as fundamental a degree as perde segah with Fb, when it is obvious that this natural pitch has to be an E anywhere from 5/4 to 12/11. We have measured it, observed it, listened to it, seen musicians play it, recorded and analyzed countless samples.

----- Original Message -----
From: c_ml_forster
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 13 Haziran 2005 Pazartesi 20:59
Subject: [tuning] Re: Modern Turkish Tunbur and 53-TET

🔗c_ml_forster <76153.763@compuserve.com>

>And for that matter, many theorists were obviously not great
>musicians themselves.

This reminds me of the old college joke:

"We built a time machine and
brought back Shakespeare.
He took a class in 'Hamlet'
and failed!"

Cris Forster

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@s...> wrote:
> Just because the `Pythagorean cycle of fifths` were deemed by some
oriental theorists as an indispensible tool in explaining Maqam
scales does not mean that they were any the more concerned with
explaining actual pitches observed throughout the geography they
inhabited.
>
> And for that matter, many theorists were obviously not great
musicians themselves. If they are praised for their musical talent,
it is only a justification on the part of their predecessors who
wished nothing other than glorifying a timeless past, and thus
glorify themselves. Obviously, false pretensions to humility is all
too common an attitude in the civilizations of the East. How many
here know that Pythagoras was considered a prophet by the ancient
intelligentsia of Islam (Aristoteleans and Platonists) in order to
justify the importance of their diverse philosophical schools of
thought and to salvage their works from the onslaught of bigots?
>
> Deeper research indicates that pompous remarks and flattering
references aiming to justify what cannot be justified are quite
uncreditable, if not baseless. It is not surprising to see that the
tradition of unctuousness has taken roots in some other parts of the
world as well. To claim that a musical tradition remains unperturbed
throughout a millenium is equal to claiming that Europe is still
stuck in the Middle Ages. Such is not the case of course.
>
> Maqam Music, which has flourished greatly all this time since, now
requires a theory that can measure up to its fascinatingly
articulate nature.
>
> Cordially,
> Ozan Yarman
>
>
> Note: It is a fallacy to express as fundamental a degree as perde
segah with Fb, when it is obvious that this natural pitch has to be
an E anywhere from 5/4 to 12/11. We have measured it, observed it,
listened to it, seen musicians play it, recorded and analyzed
countless samples.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: c_ml_forster
> To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: 13 Haziran 2005 Pazartesi 20:59
> Subject: [tuning] Re: Modern Turkish Tunbur and 53-TET
>
>
> My research from original sources (La Musique Arabe) indicates
that
> many Arabian and Persian modes from the days of Ibn Sina, Al-
Farabi,
> and Safi Al-Din have not changed for up to a thousand years.
One
> cannot discover this kind of continuity except through a
Rational
> Ratio Analysis of how these theorists tuned their uds and/or
tunburs
> and comparing this data to modern research done by Farhat,
Signell,
> Racy, etc. It is a great pity that anachronisms perpetrated by
> logarithmic calculations obscure and confound these profoundly
great
> musical and oral traditions.

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@superonline.com>

That is no college joke, it is a science-fiction story by Isaac Asimov.

Also, actual measurements of pitches performed would help greatly in understanding Maqams instead of propagating Turkish chauvanism in the tuning list.

It was, afterall, Rauf Yekta who, in his zeal against the counter-zeal of Ziya Gokalp, claimed that Turkish Music was not based on quarter-tones or the Byzantine theory of music (as if such trifles mattered). But his adversary (the incurable Turkism advocate) would not listen, and neither did the Republic who took the man seriously enough (with catastrophic results I might add).

Incidentially, Maqam Music education came to a grinding halt, and even the "comma" argument could not save it.

That certain renown ancient theorists reverted to the untempered cycle of fifths in order to explain maqam scales is unfortunate both in the sense that they have not concerned themselves much with actual pitch measurements, and in the sense that the Yekta-Arel-Ezgi school found mighty historical sponsors to justify their rescue attempt to the detriment of Maqam Music education.

Besides, their uncalculated rescue operation propelled by their fabricated arguments (yes, Alpharabius is Turkish! so is Avicenna and Safiyuddin! in fact you are also Turkish but you do not know it. We gave you everything, and now you owe it to us all!) proved futile in the end. Sadly, the two contending nationalist schools have eroded the wonderful musical culture of Turkey almost to the brink of extinction.

Maqam Music certainly cannot survive the same mistake being repeated. And I believe people who have not handled a tanbur in their life should be more careful as to their remarks about a genre that escapes their understanding.

Cordially,
Ozan

----- Original Message -----
From: c_ml_forster
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 14 Haziran 2005 Salı 4:17
Subject: [tuning] Re: Modern Turkish Tunbur and 53-TET

>And for that matter, many theorists were obviously not great
>musicians themselves.

This reminds me of the old college joke:

"We built a time machine and
brought back Shakespeare.
He took a class in 'Hamlet'
and failed!"

Cris Forster

🔗c_ml_forster <76153.763@compuserve.com>

As a mere mortal, I can only imagine how much
Al-Kindi, Ibn-Sina, Al-Farabi, Safi Al-din, and Al-Jurjani
could have learned from you.

Cris Forster

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@s...> wrote:
> That is no college joke, it is a science-fiction story by Isaac
Asimov.
>
> Also, actual measurements of pitches performed would help greatly
in understanding Maqams instead of propagating Turkish chauvanism in
the tuning list.
>
> It was, afterall, Rauf Yekta who, in his zeal against the counter-
zeal of Ziya Gokalp, claimed that Turkish Music was not based on
quarter-tones or the Byzantine theory of music (as if such trifles
mattered). But his adversary (the incurable Turkism advocate) would
not listen, and neither did the Republic who took the man seriously
enough (with catastrophic results I might add).
>
> Incidentially, Maqam Music education came to a grinding halt, and
even the "comma" argument could not save it.
>
> That certain renown ancient theorists reverted to the untempered
cycle of fifths in order to explain maqam scales is unfortunate both
in the sense that they have not concerned themselves much with
actual pitch measurements, and in the sense that the Yekta-Arel-Ezgi
school found mighty historical sponsors to justify their rescue
attempt to the detriment of Maqam Music education.
>
> Besides, their uncalculated rescue operation propelled by their
fabricated arguments (yes, Alpharabius is Turkish! so is Avicenna
and Safiyuddin! in fact you are also Turkish but you do not know it.
We gave you everything, and now you owe it to us all!) proved futile
in the end. Sadly, the two contending nationalist schools have
eroded the wonderful musical culture of Turkey almost to the brink
of extinction.
>
> Maqam Music certainly cannot survive the same mistake being
repeated. And I believe people who have not handled a tanbur in
their life should be more careful as to their remarks about a genre
that escapes their understanding.
>
> Cordially,
> Ozan
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: c_ml_forster
> To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: 14 Haziran 2005 Salý 4:17
> Subject: [tuning] Re: Modern Turkish Tunbur and 53-TET
>
>
> >And for that matter, many theorists were obviously not great
> >musicians themselves.
>
>
> This reminds me of the old college joke:
>
> "We built a time machine and
> brought back Shakespeare.
> He took a class in 'Hamlet'
> and failed!"
>
> Cris Forster

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@superonline.com>

Probably nothing compared to what I could learn from them.
----- Original Message -----
From: c_ml_forster
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 14 Haziran 2005 Salı 6:11
Subject: [tuning] Re: Modern Turkish Tunbur and 53-TET

As a mere mortal, I can only imagine how much
Al-Kindi, Ibn-Sina, Al-Farabi, Safi Al-din, and Al-Jurjani
could have learned from you.

Cris Forster

Modern Turkish Tunbur and 53-TET

🔗Cris Forster <76153.763@compuserve.com>

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@superonline.com>

🔗c_ml_forster <76153.763@compuserve.com>

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@superonline.com>

🔗c_ml_forster <76153.763@compuserve.com>

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@superonline.com>

🔗c_ml_forster <76153.763@compuserve.com>

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@superonline.com>