The _other_ minor scale

We have names for minor scales with the following step patterns in
12-equal.

2122122 A BC D EF G A natural minor (a rotation of natural major)
2122131 A BC D EF G# A harmonic minor
2122221 A BC D E F# G# A melodic minor ascending, minor-major
(a rotation of altered major)
and some less melodically-even ones

1222131 ABb C D EF G#A Neapolitan minor
2131131 A BC D#EF G#A Gipsy or Hungarian or double-harmonic minor

But there's another one I noticed a decade or so ago when I was
looking at automatic key recognition in software, and it still doesn't
seem to have a name. It is no less melodically-even than the harmonic
minor, in fact, ignoring rotation, it contains the same sequence of
steps in reverse order. It is

2131221 A B C D#E F# G# A

So it's like a melodic minor (ascending) with the 4th degree sharped,
or a double-harmonic minor with the 6th degree sharped.

It is a rotation (i.e. "mode") of the following major scales.

2212131 C D EF GAb BC harmonic major
and
1312212 CDb EF G ABb C harmonic minor inverse
"turkish.scl" in the Scala archive

Notice that the "harmonic minor inverse" scale is a (modified) _major_
scale since it has a major triad on the tonic. but it is indeed the
true inverse of the harmonic minor.

Scala describes this _other_ minor 12-tone mode (e.g. A B C D#E F# G#
A) as:

2131221 Lydian Diminished, Mela Dharmavati, Raga Arunajualita,
Dumyaraga, Madhuvanti, Ambika

I don't understand why the name "Lydian diminished" is appropriate at
all, since the diminished scale is the 8-note scale 21212121 and the
Greek Lydian mode is just the natural major 2212221.

It seems it ought to be named as a _minor_ scale, since it has a minor
triad on the tonic.

Any suggestions?

-- Dave Keenan

I wrote:
> I don't understand why the name "Lydian diminished" is appropriate
[for 2131221] at
> all, since the diminished scale is the 8-note scale 21212121 and the
> Greek Lydian mode is just the natural major 2212221.

This page
http://sound.jp/scale_viewer/modes.html
helped me to understand that "Lydian" is being used to mean the
rotation beginning on the 4th degree (the ecclesiastical or medieval
"Lydian", not the ancient Greek). But the scale being rotated is the
harmonic major. And the resulting scale does have a diminished triad
(and tetrad) available on the tonic, as well as a minor triad, however
the diminished triad uses the third and fourth degrees of the scale,
not the third and fifth.

So it still seems it ought to have an alternative name as a kind of
minor scale.

"melodic minor sharp fourth"?
"double-harmonic minor sharp sixth"?
"double-harmonic melodic minor"?
"melodic double-harmonic minor"?

-- Dave Keenan

Here's my guess --

Lydian (as it is used contemporarily) has the raised 4th scale degree --
as does the scale in question -- and a diminished triad is formed if you
use the D# as an enharmonic Eb. D#-F#-A-C...... there is a diminished
quality in the set.

P

____________________

"Dave Keenan" <d.keenan@bigpond.net.au>
Sent by: tuning@yahoogroups.com
06/06/2005 12:53 AM
Please respond to tuning

To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
cc:
Subject: [tuning] The _other_ minor scale

Scala describes this _other_ minor 12-tone mode (e.g. A B C D#E F# G#
A) as:

2131221 Lydian Diminished, Mela Dharmavati, Raga Arunajualita,
Dumyaraga, Madhuvanti, Ambika

I don't understand why the name "Lydian diminished" is appropriate at
all, since the diminished scale is the 8-note scale 21212121 and the
Greek Lydian mode is just the natural major 2212221.

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A BC D EF G A
A BC D EF G# A

are Buselik scales.

ABb C D EF G#A
(G)

is a Kurdi'li Hijazkar scale

A BC D#EF G#A
A B C D#E F# G# A

are Neveser scales

CDb EF G ABb C
CDb EF G Ab Bb C

are Hijaz scales.

Cordially,
Ozan

----- Original Message -----
From: Dave Keenan
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 06 Haziran 2005 Pazartesi 7:53
Subject: [tuning] The _other_ minor scale

We have names for minor scales with the following step patterns in
12-equal.

2122122 A BC D EF G A natural minor (a rotation of natural major)
2122131 A BC D EF G# A harmonic minor
2122221 A BC D E F# G# A melodic minor ascending, minor-major
(a rotation of altered major)
and some less melodically-even ones

1222131 ABb C D EF G#A Neapolitan minor
2131131 A BC D#EF G#A Gipsy or Hungarian or double-harmonic minor

But there's another one I noticed a decade or so ago when I was
looking at automatic key recognition in software, and it still doesn't
seem to have a name. It is no less melodically-even than the harmonic
minor, in fact, ignoring rotation, it contains the same sequence of
steps in reverse order. It is

2131221 A B C D#E F# G# A

So it's like a melodic minor (ascending) with the 4th degree sharped,
or a double-harmonic minor with the 6th degree sharped.

It is a rotation (i.e. "mode") of the following major scales.

2212131 C D EF GAb BC harmonic major
and
1312212 CDb EF G ABb C harmonic minor inverse
"turkish.scl" in the Scala archive

Notice that the "harmonic minor inverse" scale is a (modified) _major_
scale since it has a major triad on the tonic. but it is indeed the
true inverse of the harmonic minor.

Scala describes this _other_ minor 12-tone mode (e.g. A B C D#E F# G#
A) as:

2131221 Lydian Diminished, Mela Dharmavati, Raga Arunajualita,
Dumyaraga, Madhuvanti, Ambika

I don't understand why the name "Lydian diminished" is appropriate at
all, since the diminished scale is the 8-note scale 21212121 and the
Greek Lydian mode is just the natural major 2212221.

It seems it ought to be named as a _minor_ scale, since it has a minor
triad on the tonic.

Any suggestions?

-- Dave Keenan