ordered or unordered: scales vs. generalized rags

> Let me give you an example where the scale has to be a sequence
> of notes, not just a set of notes: the melodic minor scale of
> common practice. It's usually taught that the scale has two
> distinct forms, one ascending and the other descending. For
> example, the C minor scale runs thus -
>
> Ascending: C D Eb F G A B C'
> Descending: C' Bb Ab G F Eb D C
>
> - and it's in _both_ those forms that countless music students
> for centuries have practiced it.
>
>

But even this is not a complete definition . . .after all, the C D Eb F
and G can be more or less freely ordered. But the A-natural pretty much
only occurs when it's leading into B, and thence unto C. Bb and Ab occur
pretty much only as neighbors moving down to G. Although Ab may occur
freely (just as a 6th scale degree.) (The Bb and Ab are "freer" in
general than the A B).

So it's really a very complex definition.

Perhaps we would profit from talking about 2 categories here:

SCALES: unordered collections of pitches

RAGS: (generalized from the Indian idea) SCALES, or combinations of
scales, but with RULES about how to use one or more of their
pitches.

thus "melodic minor" is a very simple RAG of sorts, comprising 2 related
collections: C D Eb F G A B, and C D eb F G Ab Bb

In a message dated 5/22/2005 10:25:07 AM Eastern Standard Time,
chris@music.columbia.edu writes:
But the A-natural pretty much
only occurs when it's leading into B, and thence unto C.
Hi Chris,

If you are in C major, you can have a chord with an A natural in it. For
example, you might have a major IV chord (F A C). This is done all the time and
has nothing to do with melody, nothing to do with direction.

For this reason alone, minor can be said to have 9 notes instead of 7, all
the time. It seems to me that teaching types of minor is retro to the facts.
Anyone ever hear of Piano Sonata in C Melodic Minor? C Harmonic Minor? C
Natural Minor?

all best, Johnny Reinhard

>Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 10:33:20 EDT
> From: Afmmjr@aol.com
>Subject: Re: ordered or unordered: scales vs. generalized rags

>In a message dated 5/22/2005 10:25:07 AM Eastern Standard Time,
>chris@music.columbia.edu writes:
>But the A-natural pretty much
>only occurs when it's leading into B, and thence unto C.

>Hi Chris,

>If you are in C major, you can have a chord with an A natural in it. For
>example, you might have a major IV chord (F A C). This is done all the
>time and
>has nothing to do with melody, nothing to do with direction.

You're correct. But I'm not talking about C Major.
If an F Major chord appears in a C-Minor context, I'll argue that most of
the time, it means something is happening directionally. I.e., that A
is going to lead to B. (Or you're hearing something exceptional).

>
>For this reason alone, minor can be said to have 9 notes instead of 7,
>all
>the time. It seems to me that teaching types of minor is retro to the
>facts.
>Anyone ever hear of Piano Sonata in C Melodic Minor? C Harmonic Minor?
>C
>Natural Minor?

Perhaps the take-away here is that Major is a simple RAG, consisting of
basically, an un-ordered collection (SCALE), where certain tones (B, F,
etc. in C Major for example), may have directional tendencies that can be
invoked.

On the other hand, Minor is a far more complex RAG type of structure,
which includes all of the different "types" of minor (natural, melodic,
and harmonic). With , yah, sure, 9 notes instead of 7, but with 4 of
those subject to pretty strict rules (which as with all such rules, be
disobeyed once in a while. . .but the exception proves the rule).

In a message dated 5/24/2005 12:24:50 AM Eastern Standard Time,
chris@music.columbia.edu writes:
>Hi Chris,

>If you are in C major, you can have a chord with an A natural in it. For
>example, you might have a major IV chord (F A C). This is done all the
>time and
>has nothing to do with melody, nothing to do with direction.

You're correct. But I'm not talking about C Major.
If an F Major chord appears in a C-Minor context, I'll argue that most of
the time, it means something is happening directionally. I.e., that A
is going to lead to B. (Or you're hearing something exceptional).

>
Sorry, Chris, I meant C minor. And yes, there can easily be a major IV chord
with an FAC triad, if only for cadence purposes. best, Johnny

Dear Johnny,

I assumed that there are 3 varieties of the minor scale, each one consisting of only 7 tones per octave. I find it quite uncomfortable to think of a minor scale of having 9 notes per octave.

Cordially,
Ozan
----- Original Message -----
From: Afmmjr@aol.com
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 22 Mayıs 2005 Pazar 17:33
Subject: Re: [tuning] ordered or unordered: scales vs. generalized rags

In a message dated 5/22/2005 10:25:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, chris@music.columbia.edu writes:
But the A-natural pretty much
only occurs when it's leading into B, and thence unto C.
Hi Chris,

If you are in C major, you can have a chord with an A natural in it. For example, you might have a major IV chord (F A C). This is done all the time and has nothing to do with melody, nothing to do with direction.

For this reason alone, minor can be said to have 9 notes instead of 7, all the time. It seems to me that teaching types of minor is retro to the facts. Anyone ever hear of Piano Sonata in C Melodic Minor? C Harmonic Minor? C Natural Minor?

all best, Johnny Reinhard

In a message dated 5/24/2005 8:56:31 PM Eastern Standard Time,
ozanyarman@superonline.com writes:
I find it quite uncomfortable to think of a minor scale of having 9 notes per
octave.

Cordially,
Ozan
Why? Johnny

Because I would rather consider a melodic minor scale to be a 9-note gamut, where two diatonical scales are embedded within.

Cordially,
Ozan
----- Original Message -----
From: Afmmjr@aol.com
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 25 Mayıs 2005 Çarşamba 5:47
Subject: Re: [tuning] ordered or unordered: scales vs. generalized rags

In a message dated 5/24/2005 8:56:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, ozanyarman@superonline.com writes:
I find it quite uncomfortable to think of a minor scale of having 9 notes per octave.

Cordially,
Ozan
Why? Johnny