Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning MIDI-Sample Orchestration

Hi Jon,

Thanks for providing the link below. Yes, I'd be glad if you can find the audio track examples. (continued...)

Hmmm, this one wasn't easy, but I found it:

Keyboard magazine no longer has their archives online, so thank goodness for the Wayback Machine. The above link is an article from Dec 2000 profiling composer James Newton Howard, and I believe it gives a lot of insight into how one needs to shape electronic tools to reflect humanistic playing styles. I'm not saying his way is the only way, but it certainly is an illustrative look at someone who brings this off quite well.

Since you asked about equipment, note his list at the end of the article. To see just how egregious this can get, note the number in parenthesis after his mention of the Roland S-760 Sampler - (28). Yes, indeed, at this time he had 28 of those suckers in his rack!

Unfortunately, the two example files aren't online, but I may have them on one of my older machines archived. If you are interested, I'll look for them...

Cheers,
Jon

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So, it is all about pumping the expression pedal as one makes a live midi recording. I have one such pedal which I tend to use. So far so good.

It also seems that he shuns quantization of liquiescent instrumental parts such as violins and oboes.

Velocity-switched layers for different sound characteristics emanating from the same instrument is an awfully good idea, which I think must be implemented and integrated with notation software of the next decade.

For example, I surmise that at least four or five velocity/expression layers for a grand piano sample is necessary to emphasize various nuances between ppp and fff.

It is a shame that the MIDI sustain pedal just operates as an ON/OFF switch. In acoustical pianos, the amount of release of dampers critically affects sound output.

I don't understand the zippering part though. Distortion and White Noise, on the other hand, are a big nuisance in the electronic medium. Is there no way of cutting out the white noise without ruining the waveform?

It is also a grand idea to channel all bare instrumental parts to a single effects processor. However, the processor must be very professional (and expensive).

It all boils down to the best sample libraries available, which evidently cost a small fortune.

And the way Howard uses different string ensemble samples to double the already written parts just shows that you can never always get the most realistic sample on the first try.

Let us simplify that list however:

(1) Integrated DAT/CD/DVD 24-bit multiple-layer recorder
(1 pair) Quality flat-speaker monitors with integrated amplification
(1) PowerMac laptop (MacOs latest) with Pro Tools and other stuff installed
(1) All-in-One Compact Mixer Console with Integrated Aural Effects and Dynamic Processors (Expandable)
(1) Realistic 88-Key Grand-action Piano Keyboard & Expandable Synth with On-Board Mega-Sampler Device + Vienna Symphonic Library etc...

Of course, all of these must be microtonal-friendly.

I think this much is quite enough. It's all a matter of locating the dream items and obtaining a price.

Cordially,
Ozan

----- Original Message -----
From: Jon Szanto
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 16 Mayıs 2005 Pazartesi 6:40
Subject: [tuning] Re: Constant shifting of key

Hi Ozan,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@s...> wrote:
> Dear Jon, what is the minimal list of electronic equipment and
software required to produce this "shockingly-close to reality"
microtonal-orchestral performance? A price tag included will be most
appreciated.

I'm sorry, that isn't quite possible. Usually, this amounts to "the
sky is the limit". When I've got more time I can post a couple of past
links (if they are still good) that gave examples of a couple people
who do this that were quite illustrative.

But you know what? A lot of it has to do with 2 things:

1. Using your ears (and I *don't* mean that facetiously!)
2. Understanding the thing you are trying to replicate

This kind of answer that I'm giving will probably be frustrating, but
the above 2 elements can lead you in quite a number of different
directions. For example, some of the articles I've posted in the past
(mostly on MMM, I'm afraid) were dealing with hardware synthesizers.
As anyone who frequents MMM knows, we're going through a fairly large
shift in electronic music right now from hardware to software. I don't
mean to imply that hardware synths will be replaced by soft, but that
there are now alternatives that are more cost - and space - effective.

If you concentrate only on point #2 above, one could think about Tom's
comment: that an entire violin section can't _musically_ be emulated
by one line or pass through a synth. [Please note that while I am
using the term "synth", you could substitute any sound generation
device, for example Gene uses soundfonts frequently]. If you were to
record a number of passes of the same violin line, with slightly
differing velocities, attacks, aftertouch, etc, you come closer to
mixing the infinite variety of nuances (and fallicies!) happening at
any time in a violin section.

I fear I might babble too much, and that the tuning list might not be
the appropriate forum. But some composers I know have been able to get
good orchestral simulations using a small number of samplers layered
with other instruments, while big-time Hollywood types have racks and
racks of these. The bottom line is listening to your result, and
spending time trying to build in the phrasings and nuances of the type
ensemble you are attempting to represent. Taking a basic midi file and
dumping it through a generalised instrument, even with a little
processing, is probably going to yield lesser results.

Two last things:

1. Trying to recreate orchestral/classical stuff isn't the only way to
go, and Gene has done other stuff with the same tools that I like.

2. I haven't even mentioned the next hurdle - doing all this
convincingly *and* making it microtonal!

Cheers,
Jon

🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@cox.net>

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@superonline.com>

Hi again Jon,
----- Original Message -----
From: Jon Szanto
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 17 Mayıs 2005 Salı 22:49
Subject: [tuning] Re: MIDI-Sample Orchestration

Hi Ozan,

I'm not having much luck with those JM Howard tracks. As an alternate
example, one of my good friends is an up-and-coming film composer. I
remembered a score he did for an independent film entitled "Raven's
Blood". There is a Quicktime trailer of the title sequence on his site
- here's an easy link:

http://tinyurl.com/br6tv

On this title track, there are only two live instruments (and the
piano isn't one of them), and all the rest of the orchstration is
sample/synth. While there is a fair amount of legato/pad, it does show
how one can be sensitive to articulations, as well as create a
representational sound world.

Let me guess, it's cello and harp, yes?

I've also come across what looks to be a good book on midi orchestration:

http://www.musicworks-atlanta.com/

I feel that we're getting a bit off-topic for this list, so if you
want any more follow-ups we can do it off-list or on metatuning...

Cheers,
Jon

I don't think microtonal Midi orchestration tips are off-topic.

Cordially,
Ozan

🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@cox.net>

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@superonline.com>

Dear Jon,
----- Original Message -----
From: Jon Szanto
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 18 Mayıs 2005 Çarşamba 1:13
Subject: [tuning] Re: MIDI-Sample Orchestration

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@s...> wrote:
> Let me guess, it's cello and harp, yes?

Cello, and trumpet at the end.

Ah, I almost had my finger on it, but they were both muddled and I couldn't make up my mind on the last bit.

> I don't think microtonal Midi orchestration tips are off-topic.

I guess I've been discussing some very general sound and orchestration
ideas - electronic ones - as opposed to specifically microtonal.
Unfortunately, going outside of 12 is still a very tricky thing to do
if one is trying not to compromise other areas too greatly. Quite easy
to do a lot of microtonal right now, mimicing acoustic ensembles
convincingly not quite so easy.

Let's just be aware in case any of the other list members are minding
this. Besides, the practical aspects of Making Microtonal Music are
the prime reason that list came into being. I'd be a lot more
comfortable over there (though the gang is pretty guitar-focused right
now! Go figure!! :)

Cheers,
Jon

I somehow feel that MMM is not the place for myself, since I have been more affliated with the theoretical background of Maqam Music recently. And what's more, a guitar-based approach to microtonality is not terribly attractive to the likes of me. I would rather imagine huge orchestras (symphonic fasil) playing maqam polyphony the way I conceive, with every darn microtone of Huzzam, Saba, Usshaq, Nihavend, and Allah knows what else, all theoretically formulated and grounded to the utmost limit in concrete notation.

Since I do not imagine that Berlin or New York Philarmonic Orchestras will any time soon start practicing microtones, I will stick to the sampling technology.

If it is a matter of midi tuning realistic samples, then we are still on-topic.

Cordially,
Ozan