Sumer is icumen in

This is dated to the mid-thirteenth century, and yet it is triadically
based polyphonic music which would make sense as a meantone piece. Is
there a conventional wisdom about how, exactly, people back then sang
it? Is there any presumably less-conventional, tuning list theory,
such as that people felt their way into a 5-limit JI version?

>This is dated to the mid-thirteenth century, and yet it is triadically
>based polyphonic music which would make sense as a meantone piece. Is
>there a conventional wisdom about how, exactly, people back then sang
>it? Is there any presumably less-conventional, tuning list theory,
>such as that people felt their way into a 5-limit JI version?

Apparently this is just a folk melody. To what version are you
referring?

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:

> >This is dated to the mid-thirteenth century, and yet it is triadically
> >based polyphonic music which would make sense as a meantone piece. Is
> >there a conventional wisdom about how, exactly, people back then sang
> >it? Is there any presumably less-conventional, tuning list theory,
> >such as that people felt their way into a 5-limit JI version?
>
> Apparently this is just a folk melody. To what version are you
> referring?

It's a folk melody, but the melody is sung as a round. It seems to be
the first round known; here's what Wikiopedia says about it:

Sumer Is Icumen In is a traditional English round, and possibly the
oldest example of counterpoint in existence. It is the oldest piece of
six-part polyphonic music (Albright, 1994). The title might be
translated as "Summer is a-coming in". Its composer is anonymous and
it is estimated to date from around 1260. The language is Middle English.

Here's another page on it, with midi files:

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~msmiller/sumercanon.html

From Lowinsky:

"... we need not take the Pythagoreanism of medieval theorists as a
faithful description of musical practice (since it was never intended to
engage in such inquiry), how far backwards should we project the present
arguments for JI? For the tuning of faburden sixths, anything other than the 5-limit
intervals is, I believe, highly implausible. But neither would I like to assume that the almost unanimous
Pythagoreanism of medieval theorists simply ceased to have any impact on
composers. These are qustions for further investigation, which is likely
to include not only the examining of musical and other
documentary evidence, but also the study through performance of later
medieval repertoires in order to discern what intonation would seem most
appropriate. By the 16th century, the complete absorption of the 5-limit
intervals seems certain, while the 10th century evidence on the intonation
of organum thirds is hazy. Assuming that Pythagorean, i.e. purely
3-limit tuning was in fact practiced at some stage (and it is always worth
stating our assumptions, even when we don't intend to question them), we
may slowly be able to deduce where and when it expanded into the 5-limit
system, and where it might have enjoyed a resurgence."

I think it is safe to say that the singers of Sumer is would singer all those 3rds and 6ths in a just manner -- whether they knew
it or not

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
>
> > >This is dated to the mid-thirteenth century, and yet it is
triadically
> > >based polyphonic music which would make sense as a meantone piece. Is
> > >there a conventional wisdom about how, exactly, people back then sang
> > >it? Is there any presumably less-conventional, tuning list theory,
> > >such as that people felt their way into a 5-limit JI version?
> >
> > Apparently this is just a folk melody. To what version are you
> > referring?
>
> It's a folk melody, but the melody is sung as a round. It seems to be
> the first round known; here's what Wikiopedia says about it:
>
> Sumer Is Icumen In is a traditional English round, and possibly the
> oldest example of counterpoint in existence. It is the oldest piece of
> six-part polyphonic music (Albright, 1994). The title might be
> translated as "Summer is a-coming in". Its composer is anonymous and
> it is estimated to date from around 1260. The language is Middle
English.
>
> Here's another page on it, with midi files:
>
> http://www-personal.umich.edu/~msmiller/sumercanon.html

___________________________________________
Paul Greenhaw
Music Specialist II
The New York Public Library for the Performing Arts
40 Lincoln Center Plaza
New York, NY 10023
(212) 870-1892
__________________________________________

>From Lowinsky:
>
>"... we need not take the Pythagoreanism of medieval theorists as a
>faithful description of musical practice (since it was never intended to
>engage in such inquiry), how far backwards should we project the present
>arguments for JI? For the tuning of faburden sixths, anything other than
>the 5-limit intervals is, I believe, highly implausible. But neither
>would I like to assume that the almost unanimous Pythagoreanism of
>medieval theorists simply ceased to have any impact on composers. These
>are qustions for further investigation, which is likely to include not
>only the examining of musical and other documentary evidence, but also
>the study through performance of later medieval repertoires in order to
>discern what intonation would seem most appropriate. By the 16th century,
>the complete absorption of the 5-limit intervals seems certain, while the
>10th century evidence on the intonation of organum thirds is hazy.
>Assuming that Pythagorean, i.e. purely 3-limit tuning was in fact
>practiced at some stage (and it is always worth stating our assumptions,
>even when we don't intend to question them), we may slowly be able to
>deduce where and when it expanded into the 5-limit system, and where
>it might have enjoyed a resurgence."
>
>I think it is safe to say that the singers of Sumer is would singer all
>those 3rds and 6ths in a just manner -- whether they knew it or not

From Lowinsky what, and who is Lowinsky?

-C.

Who is Lowinsky??? Edward Lowinsky is a very well-known music scholar --
he deals mostly with Renaissance music....... sorry, I used his name in an
assuming way because he is such an important figure

Carl Lumma <ekin@lumma.org>
03/17/2005 03:03 PM
Please respond to tuning

To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
cc:
Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: Sumer is icumen in

>From Lowinsky:
>
>"... we need not take the Pythagoreanism of medieval theorists as a
>faithful description of musical practice (since it was never intended to
>engage in such inquiry), how far backwards should we project the present
>arguments for JI? For the tuning of faburden sixths, anything other than
>the 5-limit intervals is, I believe, highly implausible. But neither
>would I like to assume that the almost unanimous Pythagoreanism of
>medieval theorists simply ceased to have any impact on composers. These
>are qustions for further investigation, which is likely to include not
>only the examining of musical and other documentary evidence, but also
>the study through performance of later medieval repertoires in order to
>discern what intonation would seem most appropriate. By the 16th
century,
>the complete absorption of the 5-limit intervals seems certain, while the
>10th century evidence on the intonation of organum thirds is hazy.
>Assuming that Pythagorean, i.e. purely 3-limit tuning was in fact
>practiced at some stage (and it is always worth stating our assumptions,
>even when we don't intend to question them), we may slowly be able to
>deduce where and when it expanded into the 5-limit system, and where
>it might have enjoyed a resurgence."
>
>I think it is safe to say that the singers of Sumer is would singer all
>those 3rds and 6ths in a just manner -- whether they knew it or not

From Lowinsky what, and who is Lowinsky?

-C.

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