RE: Digest Number 3443 (My dream harmonica)

Yahya Abdal-Aziz
>
>Yeah, looks like they know what they're doing! Why don't you
>email Jimmy Gordon there; he's the one who has "experimented
>with different tunings" and offers to create "alternate tunings".

It should be noted that when harmonica players talk of "alternate
tunings" they are usually referring to alternatives to the standard
factory made tunings based around the major triad, rather than
microtonal or xenharmonic tunings. In much the same way that when
guitarists talk about "alternate tunings" they mean alternatives to E
A D G B E.

-- Pat Missin.

www.patmissin.com

>Yahya Abdal-Aziz
>>
>>Yeah, looks like they know what they're doing! Why don't you
>>email Jimmy Gordon there; he's the one who has "experimented
>>with different tunings" and offers to create "alternate tunings".
>
>It should be noted that when harmonica players talk of "alternate
>tunings" they are usually referring to alternatives to the standard
>factory made tunings based around the major triad, rather than
>microtonal or xenharmonic tunings. In much the same way that when
>guitarists talk about "alternate tunings" they mean alternatives to E
>A D G B E.
>
> -- Pat Missin.

Just thought I'd chime in and say that it's great to have a
harmonica player on the list!

Maybe I'll also ask a question: diatonic harmonics (hope that's
the term for non-chromatic ones) usually sound like they are in
just intonation to me. Is this true, and if so, what do the
tunings look like?

Thanks,

-Carl

Carl Lumma wrote:
>
>Just thought I'd chime in and say that it's great to have a
>harmonica player on the list!

It's nice to be able to contribute something for a change, having been
lurking on the list for nearly 9 years now.

>Maybe I'll also ask a question: diatonic harmonics (hope that's
>the term for non-chromatic ones) usually sound like they are in
>just intonation to me. Is this true, and if so, what do the
>tunings look like?

Traditionally, diatonic harmonicas were almost invariably tuned in
7-limit JI. A typical 10-hole diatonic in the key of C has a C major
triad as blow notes (tuned 4:5:6) and a G9 as draw notes (tuned
4:5:6:7:9):

BLOW C E G C E G C E G C
HOLE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
DRAW D G B D F A B D F A

This is usually called "Richter tuning", although strictly speaking
the term "Richter" applies to the physical construction of the
instrument rather than the tuning (the same tuning is used other types
of harmonica, as well as on diatonic accordions and other
instruments). I go into a bit more detail about Richter and the other
construction styles on this page:

http://www.patmissin.com/ffaq/q36.html

There were a few diatonic harmonicas tuned in 12TET, but most Western
manufacturers used 7-limit JI until electronic tuners became
commonplace and players started wondering why brand new instruments
were "out of tune". This lead to the use of a variety of compromises
between JI and 12TET, the 5 draw and 9 draw reeds in particular being
raised from 21/16 to something a little closer to 4/3.

Chinese and Japanese makers had almost always tuned to 12TET and they
started to take a much bigger share of the Western market during the
mid 1980s. Of course, as we are talking about a mass-produced
instrument, the accuracy of the tuning can a little variable, but
currently there are a few diatonic harmonicas in 7-limit JI, a few in
12TET and a lot somewhere in between.

Chromatic harmonicas are a different story. The earliest ones used the
same note layout as the Richter harmonica, with the addition of a
button that switches in a second set of reed tuned one semitone
higher. These were usually also tuned in 7-limit JI, but they are
relatively uncommon these days. The "standard" chromatic uses what is
called "solo tuning", where each group of four holes covers the notes
C D E F G A B C, then starts again in the next set of holes with a
repeat of the C (the traditional diatonic tuning has a omitted notes
in the lowest octave to make the tonic and dominant chords available
for self accompaniment). Again, a button brings in a second set of
reeds tuned a semitone higher. These are invariably tuned in 12TET, or
some at least reasonable approximation thereof.

-- Pat Missin.

www.patmissin.com

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Pat Missin <pat@p...> wrote:

> Traditionally, diatonic harmonicas were almost invariably tuned in
> 7-limit JI. A typical 10-hole diatonic in the key of C has a C major
> triad as blow notes (tuned 4:5:6) and a G9 as draw notes (tuned
> 4:5:6:7:9):

So much for the theory that traditional Western music never uses just
intonation or the 7-limit, I suppose. I presume there are scores for
Richter tuned harmonicas available? Can we get them tuned to related
keys to C, such as F or G? It seems to me a harmonica ensemble would
be an interesting thing to add to a group playing 7-limit JI music.

>> Traditionally, diatonic harmonicas were almost invariably tuned in
>> 7-limit JI. A typical 10-hole diatonic in the key of C has a C major
>> triad as blow notes (tuned 4:5:6) and a G9 as draw notes (tuned
>> 4:5:6:7:9):
>
>So much for the theory that traditional Western music never uses just
>intonation or the 7-limit, I suppose. I presume there are scores for
>Richter tuned harmonicas available? Can we get them tuned to related
>keys to C, such as F or G? It seems to me a harmonica ensemble would
>be an interesting thing to add to a group playing 7-limit JI music.

Barbershop is by far the largest body of work in the 7-limit, of
any culture/genre.

-Carl

>>Just thought I'd chime in and say that it's great to have a
>>harmonica player on the list!
>
>It's nice to be able to contribute something for a change, having been
>lurking on the list for nearly 9 years now.
>
>>Maybe I'll also ask a question: diatonic harmonics (hope that's
>>the term for non-chromatic ones) usually sound like they are in
>>just intonation to me. Is this true, and if so, what do the
>>tunings look like?
>
>Traditionally, diatonic harmonicas were almost invariably tuned in
>7-limit JI. A typical 10-hole diatonic in the key of C has a C major
>triad as blow notes (tuned 4:5:6) and a G9 as draw notes (tuned
>4:5:6:7:9):
>
>BLOW C E G C E G C E G C
>HOLE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
>DRAW D G B D F A B D F A
>
>This is usually called "Richter tuning", although strictly speaking
>the term "Richter" applies to the physical construction of the
>instrument rather than the tuning (the same tuning is used other types
>of harmonica, as well as on diatonic accordions and other
>instruments). I go into a bit more detail about Richter and the other
>construction styles on this page:
>
>http://www.patmissin.com/ffaq/q36.html
>
>There were a few diatonic harmonicas tuned in 12TET, but most Western
>manufacturers used 7-limit JI until electronic tuners became
>commonplace and players started wondering why brand new instruments
>were "out of tune". This lead to the use of a variety of compromises
>between JI and 12TET, the 5 draw and 9 draw reeds in particular being
>raised from 21/16 to something a little closer to 4/3.
>
>Chinese and Japanese makers had almost always tuned to 12TET and they
>started to take a much bigger share of the Western market during the
>mid 1980s. Of course, as we are talking about a mass-produced
>instrument, the accuracy of the tuning can a little variable, but
>currently there are a few diatonic harmonicas in 7-limit JI, a few in
>12TET and a lot somewhere in between.
>
>Chromatic harmonicas are a different story. The earliest ones used the
>same note layout as the Richter harmonica, with the addition of a
>button that switches in a second set of reed tuned one semitone
>higher. These were usually also tuned in 7-limit JI, but they are
>relatively uncommon these days. The "standard" chromatic uses what is
>called "solo tuning", where each group of four holes covers the notes
>C D E F G A B C, then starts again in the next set of holes with a
>repeat of the C (the traditional diatonic tuning has a omitted notes
>in the lowest octave to make the tonic and dominant chords available
>for self accompaniment). Again, a button brings in a second set of
>reeds tuned a semitone higher. These are invariably tuned in 12TET, or
>some at least reasonable approximation thereof.
>
> -- Pat Missin.
>
>www.patmissin.com

Fantastic post! You answered my question just as I'd hoped. Thanks!

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:

> Barbershop is by far the largest body of work in the 7-limit, of
> any culture/genre.

But that is adaptive, not pure JI, isn't it?

It does make we wonder about the possibility of barbershop supported
by harmonica players, each of whom have several harmonicas to draw (or
blow) on.

>> Barbershop is by far the largest body of work in the 7-limit, of
>> any culture/genre.
>
>But that is adaptive, not pure JI, isn't it?

I'd say so.

>It does make we wonder about the possibility of barbershop supported
>by harmonica players, each of whom have several harmonicas to draw
>(or blow) on.

Hmm...

-Carl

From: "Pat Missin":

> Traditionally, diatonic harmonicas were almost invariably tuned in
> 7-limit JI. A typical 10-hole diatonic in the key of C has a C major
> triad as blow notes (tuned 4:5:6) and a G9 as draw notes (tuned
> 4:5:6:7:9):
>
> BLOW C E G C E G C E G C
> HOLE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
> DRAW D G B D F A B D F A
>
> This is usually called "Richter tuning", although strictly speaking
> the term "Richter" applies to the physical construction of the
> instrument rather than the tuning (the same tuning is used other types
> of harmonica, as well as on diatonic accordions and other
> instruments). I go into a bit more detail about Richter and the other
> construction styles on this page:
>
> http://www.patmissin.com/ffaq/q36.html

And I always thought diatonic harmonicas were 5-limit and utonal as well as otonal....

I just remembered that I own a Hohner Special 20 tuned to something called "G Country" that I haven't done a thing with in years. The sole difference between that and the regular key of G is that the drawn fifth hole is C-sharp instead of C (but the drawn ninth reed is still C-natural). Drawn holes 2-5, a Dmaj9 now, like 8:10:12:15:18; I was hoping it would've been 12:15:18:22:27.

(I'm not very good at harp, but I still want to use one in this band I just joined, so I need to practice.)

hi Gene,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:

> It does make we wonder about the possibility of barbershop
> supported by harmonica players, each of whom have several
> harmonicas to draw (or blow) on.

ha ha ... nice pun, Gene!

-monz

Gene Ward Smith wrote:
>
>
>--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Pat Missin <pat@p...> wrote:
>
>> Traditionally, diatonic harmonicas were almost invariably tuned in
>> 7-limit JI. A typical 10-hole diatonic in the key of C has a C major
>> triad as blow notes (tuned 4:5:6) and a G9 as draw notes (tuned
>> 4:5:6:7:9):
>
>So much for the theory that traditional Western music never uses just
>intonation or the 7-limit, I suppose.

It is often claimed that the harmonica outsells every other
commercially made musical instrument. I'm not sure how accurate that
is, but Hohner produced their one billionth harmonica several years
back. Up until the1980s, most diatonic harmonicas would have been in
7-limit JI whether used in blues, German oom-pah music,
Guthrie/Dylan-inspired folk music, high school harmonica bands, etc.,
etc. That's an awful lot of ears exposed to 7-limit chords over the
years.

>I presume there are scores for Richter tuned harmonicas available?

That depends what you mean by scores. There have been few serious
compositions for the diatonic harmonica, but there have been countless
songbooks with folk and popular tunes arranged for the instrument,
most often using tablature instead of or in addition to standard
notation.

>Can we get them tuned to related keys to C, such as F or G?

Most good diatonics are available in 12 keys, plus several high and
low keys and a variety of alternate note layouts.

>It seems to me a harmonica ensemble would
>be an interesting thing to add to a group playing 7-limit JI music.

There are also such things as chord harmonicas designed for use as
accompaniment, either with a limited range of closely related chords,
or giant instruments with 12 major, 12 minor and 12 seventh chords.
These are usually in 12TET, but as you have a dedicated set of reeds
for each chord they can be retuned to whatever intonation you like.

-- Pat.