Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning RE: Digest Number 368

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Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 1999 4:50 AM
To: tuning@onelist.com
Subject: [tuning] Digest Number 368

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There are 24 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

1. Re: fretless guitar
From: Robert C Valentine <bval@iil.intel.com>
2. Re: open problem
From: Carl Lumma <clumma@nni.com>
3. cakes and such
From: patrick pagano <ppagano@bellsouth.net>
4. Re: Re: fretless guitar
From: David Beardsley <xouoxno@home.com>
5. Re: Re: Juxtaposition Net Radio
From: David Beardsley <xouoxno@home.com>
6. Re: RE: That Scale
From: "D.Stearns" <stearns@capecod.net>
7. Re: Partch concert and exhibition
From: "John F. Sprague" <JSprague@dhcr.state.ny.us>
8. Re: FRETLESS GUITARS
From: "Priest of Mgo'f'ck and Knight of Delta Gamma Phi"
<vajravai@hotmail.com>
9. RE: FRETLESS GUITARS
From: "Glen Peterson" <Glen@OrganicDesign.org>
10. RE: That Scale
From: gbreed@cix.compulink.co.uk (Graham Breed)
11. Re: Re: fretless guitar
From: "D.Stearns" <stearns@capecod.net>
12. Fretless guitar
From: johnlink@con2.com (John Link)
13. RE: Re: open problem
From: "Paul H. Erlich" <PErlich@Acadian-Asset.com>
14. Re: Re: fretless guitar
From: george zelenz <ploo@mindspring.com>
15. Re: nguyen le is...
From: george zelenz <ploo@mindspring.com>
16. Real Audio trix
From: "John A. deLaubenfels" <jadl@idcomm.com>
17. RE: RE: FRETLESS GUITARS
From: "Paul H. Erlich" <PErlich@Acadian-Asset.com>
18. RE: RE: That Scale
From: "Paul H. Erlich" <PErlich@Acadian-Asset.com>
19. RE: Fretless guitar
From: "Paul H. Erlich" <PErlich@Acadian-Asset.com>
20. RE: RE: That Scale
From: "Paul H. Erlich" <PErlich@Acadian-Asset.com>
21. consistency
From: "D.Stearns" <stearns@capecod.net>
22. Re: RE: FRETLESS GUITARS
From: David Beardsley <xouoxno@home.com>
23. Re: consistency
From: Zhang2323@aol.com
24. Ustad Mashkoor Ali Khan Concert in NJ
From: David Beardsley <xouoxno@virtulink.com>

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Message: 1
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 11:37:39 +0200 (IST)
From: Robert C Valentine <bval@iil.intel.com>
Subject: Re: fretless guitar

I had a fretless guitar "built" (actually I had the
frets pulled out of a neck on a fake strat).

Sustain is the first problem. If the effect you are
looking for is pizzicato strings, then you'll get it.
A bass (upright or fretless electric) has great big
strings that actually vibrate for a while.

I found that I would have needed a lot of shedding
to even get scales to stay in tune. And a lot of that
shedding would have to be with recordings (or drones
but I play more 'harmonic' oriented musics) since
drift is not terribly noticeable in the heat of
the moment.

It was fun to plunk dyads and triads and hear them
with the just intervals, but I never could do it at
tempo (although its not that important to keep the
fast stuff "in tune"!)

My electric playing style features bends and bend
style vibrato. With a fretless, you really want to
only go with the direction of the string, using a
classical guitar vibrato and 'bending' done through
sliding. Another thing that required more shedding
than the sonic results meritted.

Randy Roos is a Boston area guitarist who had a
fretless guitar with a steel fretboard and a
"sustaniac" like pickup exciting the strings. It
wasn't always completely in tune but he did master
the expressive capabilities of the instrument. He
also sometimes played it using the fingernails on
his fretting hand rather than the fingertips. I
believe this is the technique used on the sarod.

So if I was to take it up again, I'd tune down a
fourth or fifth and scale the strings accordingly,
and I might consider an ebow for melodic playing.
I believe Nguyen Le may play fretless ebow guitar
on some of his recordings.

Bob Valentine

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Message: 2
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 09:44:06 -0400
From: Carl Lumma <clumma@nni.com>
Subject: Re: open problem

>>This is how I would like to define chromatic interval.
>
>That really only makes sense in the MOS case, but since that's what
you're
>interested in, OK!

How does it not make sense with more dimensions?

>>Paul, your search rules out many of these
>
>Yes, but with a very minor modification, it becomes equivalent.

Let me see if I have this right- the set of 1-D scales meeting your
condition is a subset of the scales meeting the MOS condition.

>>(only the 2nds built from either end of the chain are
>>important?), as I noted...
>
>Eh?

Since the endpoints of the chain are the only notes that can change
when
the scale is transposed by the generator, only those seconds
adjacent to
them matter. And of these, only the ones that are in the same
direction as
the unison vector matter. And of these, you only need to check one,
since
the scale is symmetrical.

>>When they are transposed by any of their unit vectors, no changing
notes
>>hop over unchanging notes.
>
>Well, in the 1-D case, if that's your only criterion, then there
are non-MOS
>scales that qualify.

Yes, and I wonder if there's as simple a test to find them as your
MOS test.

>So to make any progress I need to know how many pitches you, Carl,
would
>allow to change in the 2-D case.

Let's simply insist that the scale is connected and that no changing
notes
jump over unchanging notes when the scale is transposed by one step
on the
triangular lattice. This is sufficient to get the normal 1-D MOS's,
in
case the non-connected 1-D MOS's mentioned above don't work out.

-Carl

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Message: 3
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 10:09:39 -0700
From: patrick pagano <ppagano@bellsouth.net>
Subject: cakes and such

hey
i will be sending out that adobe burn this week.
going to see Ravi Shankar tonight in clearwater florida 12th row...

listen i am having horrid registry problems with my computer
can you make any suggestions on a fix or some preparations i can
make for safety?
Pat

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Message: 4
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 10:12:37 -0400
From: David Beardsley <xouoxno@home.com>
Subject: Re: Re: fretless guitar

Robert C Valentine wrote:

> I had a fretless guitar "built" (actually I had the
> frets pulled out of a neck on a fake strat).
>
> Sustain is the first problem. If the effect you are
> looking for is pizzicato strings, then you'll get it.
> A bass (upright or fretless electric) has great big
> strings that actually vibrate for a while.

This is why I went with fretless bass. If I was going
to do it again, I'd look at a 5 or 6 string to extend
my upper range.

> Randy Roos is a Boston area guitarist who had a
> fretless guitar with a steel fretboard and a
> "sustaniac" like pickup exciting the strings. It
> wasn't always completely in tune but he did master
> the expressive capabilities of the instrument. He
> also sometimes played it using the fingernails on
> his fretting hand rather than the fingertips. I
> believe this is the technique used on the sarod.

When Jon Catler used his interchangeable stainless
steel fretboard he used his fingernails on the high
strings. Later when he got a fretless G&L (a luthier
had prepaired the fretboard with 3-Ton epoxy), the
sustain was so good he didn't need to use fingernails.

> So if I was to take it up again, I'd tune down a
> fourth or fifth and scale the strings accordingly,
> and I might consider an ebow for melodic playing.
> I believe Nguyen Le may play fretless ebow guitar
> on some of his recordings.

Who's Nguyen Le? The name sounds familiar.

--
* D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
* xouoxno@virtulink.com
*
* J u x t a p o s i t i o n N e t R a d i o
* M E L A v i r t u a l d r e a m house monitor
*
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm

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Message: 5
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 10:17:32 -0400
From: David Beardsley <xouoxno@home.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Juxtaposition Net Radio

"John A. deLaubenfels" wrote:

> From: "John A. deLaubenfels" <jadl@idcomm.com>
>
> [I wrote:]
> >> Help me out, David. I went to
> >>
> >> http://www.virtulink.com/immp/jux/radio.htm
> >>
> >> and tried to download one or more files, but it kept bitching
that
> >> I didn't have Real Audio installed. Yeah, I download on one
machine
> >> (which has no sound card) and play on another (which does); is
that
> >> a problem? I was not able to get it just to put the file on my
disk!
> >> What am I missing here?
>
> [David Beardsley, TD 366.8:]
> > The files are set up to stream so you have to have
> > RA on the machine you're using to access the files.
>
> And the reason for this is - ? If Drew Skyfyre is right (TD
366.1),
> you'd just have to push a switch and the files could be
downloaded.
> Or do you have to pick one or the other, vs. allowing a choice at
> connect time?

I guess someday, when I have the time, I can add
another set of links for downloading the file so people
can download a 2 to 32 meg real audio file down a
telephone line. Most of the files are at least 14 megs.

--
* D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
* xouoxno@virtulink.com
*
* J u x t a p o s i t i o n N e t R a d i o
* M E L A v i r t u a l d r e a m house monitor
*
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm

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Message: 6
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 10:29:34 -0700
From: "D.Stearns" <stearns@capecod.net>
Subject: Re: RE: That Scale

[Paul H. Erlich:]
>10-equal is consistent through the 7-limit (meaning 1 3 5 7), but
not
the 9-limit.

Yes, that's what I thought... but before you wrote "if (and only if)
the difference between the largest error and the smallest error is
less than 0.5, then the tuning is consistent," and I took this to
mean
the difference between the largest and smallest difference from
zero... But what I thought was going on is what you describe here:
"The harmonic with the largest positive rounding error is 5 (+0.22),
and the harmonic with the largest negative rounding error is 9
(-0.30)."

So anyway, I Got it now... and thanks for the link to Paul Hahn's
(http://library.wustl.edu/~manynote/consist3.txt) table.

Dan

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Message: 7
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 10:29:14 -0400
From: "John F. Sprague" <JSprague@dhcr.state.ny.us>
Subject: Re: Partch concert and exhibition

The list of spring term courses is now available for Montclair State
University, but I couldn't find any mention of Dean Drummond or any course
title that looked like it could be his. Perhaps he is included in the
listing as "staff". His course might be a "percussion practicum" or
something like that, but why be so elusive? Does anyone know what happened?
I expect to write to him soon to try and find out.

>>> "John F. Sprague" <JSprague@dhcr.state.ny.us> 09/17 10:31 AM >>>
From: "John F. Sprague" <JSprague@dhcr.state.ny.us>

I was there. It was free. (Although there have been performances
with Partch's instruments in New York City in the past, I never found out
about them in time to attend.) When I met with Harry in Champaign in the
summer of 1960, his instruments were in storage, although he took me to see
them. So this was the first time I ever heard them in a live performance.
Some were orignials and some were replacements, such as the chromolodeon and
the bamboo marimba.
About 150 people attended. Some were standing in the rear although
scattered seats sere available. The seating capacity of the recital hall in
McEachern Hall is about 175. It is designed for good acoustics.
The program started with a brief discussion and demonstration of the
instruments by Dean Drummond, followed by "Ring Around the Moon" . After
some rearrangements on stage, Newband played Drummond's "Dance of the Seven
Veils", followed by more rearranging and his "Congressional Record", which
had premiered earlier this summer elsewhere. Both of these used instruments
he invented in addition to Partch's: the zoomoozophone and justrokerods.
Although the audience reception was excellent, the group was apparently
unprepared to do an encore.
As best as I could tell, the performances were excellent, compared
to familiar recordings of "Ring Around the Moon". A slight change was made
in the text, substituting "twinkie-winkie" for "itsy-bitsy" after the words
"teeny-weenie". Perhaps this was to avoid association with the song about
the yellow polka dot bikini, even though that was written about ten years
after "Ring". I wonder whether Paul Vance and/or Lee Pockriss got the idea
for their title from Partch's text. Does anyone know?
Dean Drummond expects to teach a course at MSU in the spring
semester if enough students sign up.

>>> "Jonathan M. Szanto" <jszanto@adnc.com> 09/16 12:05 PM >>>
From: "Jonathan M. Szanto" <jszanto@adnc.com>

Hey, hello everyone!

John Chalmers has asked me to post this to the list, so my
apologies for the few of you that will get it twice (and John
deLaubenfels, drop me a line, as the email addr I have for you
is bouncing.

Anyway, if you haven't noticed:

- Newband is playing concerts on two coasts: New Jersey was on
Sept. 12 and San Fran on Sept. 23.
- Concurrent with the SF concert, Randy Hoffman (another old Partch
hand) and I have produced an exhibition of photographs from the
Harry Partch Archive (see below)
- Newband moved to Montclair State U. in NJ
- I've revamped the Meadows guide to Partch media (cds, books,
videos) and done swell things like put images of the items, linked
to amazon.com for your ease and (maybe) my pennies
- Another update on the "Delusion"/Enclosure 6 upcoming release

All the basic information is on the main page at the site:
<http:/www.corporeal.com/>

Complete info on the Newband/SF concert is at:
<http://www.corporeal.com/nb_news.html>

including a RealAudio clip of the new Dean Drummond piece
"Congressional Record", which they'll be playing in the Bay area.

Also, in honor of Harry, his passing 25 years ago, his time
spent in the Bay area and his corporeality in general, Randy
Hoffman and I have been proud to produce an exhibition of rare
photographs, titled "HARRY PARTCH - I Was a Bum Once Myself".
It will include 35 or so photographs taken from the Harry Partch
Archives and will be a glimpse at his long life of making music
and art, against all odds. It wasn't easy narrowing it down, but
we are pleased with what we think is a wide-ranging portrait of
this singularly artistic human being. The exhibition takes place
at OmniCircus, the gallery/performance space established by Frank
Garvey, whose father, John, conducted major premieres of Harry's
work in the 50's and 60's.

The opening reception for the photo show at the OmniCircus will be
- WEDNESDAY SEPT 22, 5-8pm.
The exhibit will be open from Wed. Sept 22 through Sat. Sept 25,
from 12noon - 5pm. Admission is free to the Partch exhibit and the
opening reception. Randy and I will be at the opening reception,
one or the other of us will most likely be there on the other days.

HARRY PARTCH - I Was a Bum Once Myself
OmniCircus <http://www.omnicircus.com/>
550 Natoma St.
(between 6th & 7th & Mission & Howard, door on Russ St.)
San Francisco, CA 94103
(415)701-0686
($5 parking at 7th on Mission.)

That's all for now, hope this wasn't a burden. If any of you listors
or listees manage to make it to the concert/exhibit, please say hi.
At the concert I should be the one in the bow tie...

Corporeally,
Jon
`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`
Jonathan M. Szanto : Corporeal Meadows - Harry Partch, online.
jszanto@adnc.com : http://www.corporeal.com/
`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`

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Message: 8
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 15:36:01 GMT
From: "Priest of Mgo'f'ck and Knight of Delta Gamma Phi"
<vajravai@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: FRETLESS GUITARS

with practice, it shouldn't be too difficult.
I have a fretless Ibanez. (yanked the frets myself).
Practice is neccessary though...

----Original Message Follows----
From: johnlink@con2.com (John Link)
Reply-To: tuning@onelist.com
To: tuning@onelist.com
Subject: [tuning] FRETLESS GUITARS
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 23:32:34 -0400
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On 10/19/99 I wrote:

I have a vocal quintet, ALMOST ACAPPELLA, which sings my original
arrangements of classical and jazz compositions (Chopin, Debussy,
Mussorgsky, Satie, Miles Davis, Chick Corea, Bill Evans, Earl
Zindars). I
also play guitar in the group, often bass lines. It is often quite
noticeable how the tempered tuning of the guitar (innacuarate at
that) is
out of tune with the voices. I am considering having a fretless
guitar made
and would like to learn the experience of others learning to play
such a
thing. I used to play acoustic bass, so I don't think I'd have much
trouble
playing single lines in tune, but I wonder whether parallel sixths,
at
moderate tempo, would be all that difficult? What about parallel
open
triads (e.g. on the 1st, 3rd, and 4th strings: D A F#, E B G, F# C#
A, G D
B, A E C#, etc.)?

And I haven't had a single response. Surely one of you guitar makers
or
players must have some experience you could share with me.

Thanks in advance,

John Link
New York City

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<< text3.html >>

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Message: 9
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 12:27:50 -0400
From: "Glen Peterson" <Glen@OrganicDesign.org>
Subject: RE: FRETLESS GUITARS

> playing single lines in tune, but I wonder whether parallel
sixths, at
> moderate tempo, would be all that difficult? What about parallel
open
> triads (e.g. on the 1st, 3rd, and 4th strings: D A F#, E B G,
> F# C# A, G D
> B, A E C#, etc.)?

> From: "Paul H. Erlich" <PErlich@Acadian-Asset.com>
> Jaco could do it.

Jaco could do anything (except live happily ever after). I answer
your
question with a question: How hard are you willing to work at it?

> From: David Beardsley <xouoxno@home.com>
> Dobro for a few years (2 1/2?) and maybe you might want to
> look into slide for in-tune chords.

Excellent suggestion - why didn't I think of that? Look into
playing slide
with an open tuning on any kind of guitar. Just raise the action if
necessary.

What type of guitar are you considering? Classical, Steel String,
Electric?
Do you play fingerstyle or with a pick?

Fretless guitars are prone to horrible sustain problems. A sarod is
like a
fretless guitar, but it's fingered with the fingernail (potentially
painful,
and difficult - lot's of Krazy glue on broken nails) and it's got
about 20
sympathetic strings to give it sustain. I've heard a fretless
classical
that sounded terrible. Fretless electric guitars are the most
practical.
Jon Catler claims that hard epoxy is the best material for fretless
guitar
fingerboards. There are fretless banjos, but I don't much like the
sound of
them either.

Tune the guitar to your favorite chord fingering, and use that same
inversion up and down the neck.

If all your music is in 4 or 5 keys, we could work out a meantone
system
that works well in those keys, or even JI for all your favorite
chords.
These kind of fretboards are often the most artistic looking and
rewarding
to play. Basically what Catler uses now.

31 tone equal has much better approximations of JI intervals than
12. You
wouldn't loose sustain, and your average audience wouldn't hear the
difference. Those who did, would probably like it. Cadences would
have the
same meaning, but sound better in tune.

Another idea is a scalloped fretboard. That way at least you can
sharpen
some strings with finger pressure.

Last thought: Is your guitar really 12tet? An improperly
positioned
saddle, or high action could cause the guitar to play very out of
tune.
Maybe having the action and intonation adjusted really carefully and
possibly some nut compensation would fix you right up?

---
Glen Peterson
Peterson Stringed Instruments
30 Elm Street North Andover, MA 01845
(978) 975-1527
http://www.organicdesign.org/peterson

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Message: 10
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 17:40 +0100 (BST)
From: gbreed@cix.compulink.co.uk (Graham Breed)
Subject: RE: That Scale

In-Reply-To: <940926037.14272@onelist.com>
Paul Erlich (digest 367.8) wrote:

> Graham wrote,
>
> >I moved the scale to start at each of its degrees. I don't even
know
> what >"inversion" means here: turning the scale upside-down gives
a
> >transposition of itself. If this does make a difference, I
didn't
> take >account of it.
>
> The result of combining all the modes of a scale on one tonic is
> equivalent
> to the cross-set of a scale with its own inversion (yes, the
upside-down
> version of the scale, in this case a transposition of the original

> scale).
> That's what you were doing, right?

Yes. This is what I would expect "inversion" to mean, but it
contradicts
the usual meaning wrt chord inversions.

> >One of us must me missing something.
>
> Well, I was just wondering why boh you and Dan seem so interested
in
> the big
> 19-tone scale rather than the original 10-tone scale, and why you
both
> seemed to slip from discussing the small one into discussing the
big one
> without any indication that you were doing so.

I did it because Dan did it!

I introduced the diagram (in digest 362.6) by saying "I think
transposing
that scale to each of its degrees will give" which I thought
indicated
what I was doing.

As the discussion was about "my scale" circled around, I thought I'd
show
what my scale would look like after that operation. It didn't look
like
the diagrams you two were producing, and I've now gone back through
the
digests to see why.

First of, this diamond thing of *my* scale on *my* lattice is

A---C/--E---G/--B---D/--F#
\ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \
/ / / / / / \
/ \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ \
A\--C---E\--G---B\--D---F/--A---C/
\ \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ /
\ / / / / / /
\ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \
Eb--G\--Bb--D\--F---A\--C

You can join the edges so it infinitely repeats. This isn't quite
what I
posted before. I've put note names in to show where the neutral
thirds
are. The base scale is normal meantone.

Here's the latest version of how Paul thinks the scale should look

*===*.��*.��*.��*.��*.��*.��*.��*.====*.
`._ \`._/ \`._/ \`._/ \`._/ \`._/ \`._/ \`._/ \`._
`._\ /`._\ /`._\ /`._\ /`._\ /`._\ /`._\ /`._\ `._
*.===`*.��`*.��`*.��`@.��`*��`*��`*====`*.
`._ \`._/ \`._/ \`._/ \`._/ \`._ \`._/ \`._/ \`._
`._\ /`._\ /`._\ /`._\ /`._\ /`._\ /`._\ /`._\
`._

`*====`*��`*��`*��`*��`*��`*��`*��`*===*

from digest 359.

As well as not having the 5-limit intervals, that's drawn on a
different
lattice. On my lattice, the scale is a single string of neutral
thirds,
which is trivial. On the lattice that Dan originally drew, it is

*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*
\ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ /
*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*
/ \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \
*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*

Where the primary consonance is

11
--
/ 9 \
/ \
/ \
1 / \ 3
- ----------- -
1 2

I've now discovered that digest 357 is where the diagram switched so
the
triangle is this consonance:

11
--
/ 8 \
/ \
/ \
1 / \ 3
- ----------- -
1 2

and that does mean the two diagrams show the same scale. So we're
all
happy. But I still think

Eb-G\-Bb-D\-F--A\-C--E\-G--B\-D--F/-A--C/-E--G/-B--D/-F#

is simplest.

For a more *interesting* scale, how about 17 notes, which is an MOS.

Bb--D\--F---A\--C---E\--G---B\
\
C/--E---G/--B---D/--F# \
\ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ \
/ / / / / \ Bb
/ \ / \ / \ / \ / \ \
C---E\--G---B\--D---F/--A---C/--E
\ \ / \ / \ / \ / \ /
F# \ / / / / /
\ \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \
\ Bb--D\--F---A\--C---E\
\
F/--A---C/--E---G/--B---D/--F#

I've added some 7-limit intervals there which are consistent with
31-equal. Here's the same thing with 24 notes

D\-----F------A\-----C------E\-----G------B\-----D------F/-----A
\ \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ /
\ \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ /
G/-----B--\---D/-\/--F#-\/--A/-\/--C#-\/--E/ \/ \/ \/
\ / \ \ / \ /\ / \ /\ / \ /\ / \ /\ / \ /\ /\ /\
\ / \ \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \
\/ \/ \ / \/ \ / \/ \ / \/ \ / \/ \ / \ \ / \ / \
/\ /\ Ab-----C\-----Eb-----G\-----Bb-----D\-----F------A\
/ \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ \ \
/ \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ \ \
G------B\-----D------F/-----A------C/-----E------G/-----B--\---D/
\ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ \ /
\ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ \
C#-\/--E/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \
\ /\ / \ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ Ab
/ \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \
/ \/ \ / \ \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \
G\-----Bb-----D\-----F------A\-----C------E\-----G------B\-----D
/ \ \ \ \ / \ / \ / \ / \ /
/ \ \ \ \ / \ / \ / \ / \ /
C/-----E------G/-----B--\---D/-\/--F#-\/--A/-\/--C#-\/--E/ \/
\ / \ / \ / \ \ / \ /\ / \ /\ / \ /\ / \ /\ / \ /\
\ / \ / \ / \ \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \
\/ \/ \/ \/ \ / \/ \ / \/ \ / \/ \ / \/ \ / \ \
/\ /\ /\ /\ Ab-----C\-----Eb-----G\-----Bb-----D\
/ \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ \
/ \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ \
C------E\-----G------B\-----D------F/-----A------C/-----E------G/

Try showing all that on your puny JI lattice!!!!!

Now we do have all the intervals from the 11-limit, it may be worth
using
the other lattice explained here:

http://x31eq.com/lattice.htm#11limit

But that would mean work. As the scales are generated from a string
of
neutral thirds, the neutral third-based lattice is easier.

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Message: 11
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 12:44:30 -0700
From: "D.Stearns" <stearns@capecod.net>
Subject: Re: Re: fretless guitar

[Robert C Valentine:]
>Sustain is the first problem. If the effect you are looking for is
pizzicato strings, then you'll get it.

With a clean tone this is true enough, though like most instrument
specific quirks, this too can be turned from a (potential) negative
into a positive. And while even the slightest bit of distortion
might
be too much distortion for some tastes or contexts... I generally
tend
to use a bunch of different shades (or degrees) of distortion on the
fretless, and as such, rarely ever find lack of sustain to be a
bothersome issue.

>With a fretless, you really want to only go with the direction of
the
string, using a classical guitar vibrato and 'bending' done through
sliding. Another thing that required more shedding than the sonic
results meritted.

Hmm... One of my very favorite things about the fretless *is* the
faux
string bends... and though (somewhat alarming) things like ever so
slightly rolling your finger forwards or backwards are a particular
favorite of mine, some players do take a much more straightforward
approach... or perhaps use the fretless as a more colorful and
intonationally detailed interpreter of more orthodox contexts
(<http://www22.pair.com/taxim/items/tx2036.htm> would be one such
example of what I'm trying to say here).

Dan

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Message: 12
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 15:09:46 -0400
From: johnlink@con2.com (John Link)
Subject: Fretless guitar

Thanks to everyone who has resonded to my inquiry about fretless
guitar.

Robert C Valentine wrote:

>I had a fretless guitar "built" (actually I had the
>frets pulled out of a neck on a fake strat).

Priest of Mgo'f'ck and Knight of Delta Gamma Phi wrote:

>with practice, it shouldn't be too difficult.
>I have a fretless Ibanez. (yanked the frets myself).

D.Stearns wrote:

>I generally tend to use a bunch of different shades (or degrees) of
distortion
>on the fretless, ...

So the three of you play fretless guitar, and now I wonder whether
any of
you live in the vicinity of New York City so that I might see your
instruments. Or could anybody direct me to other players of the
fretless
guitar that live near me?

John Link

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Message: 13
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 15:25:35 -0400
From: "Paul H. Erlich" <PErlich@Acadian-Asset.com>
Subject: RE: Re: open problem

>>That really only makes sense in the MOS case, but since that's
what you're
>>interested in, OK!

>How does it not make sense with more dimensions?

I meant in the 1-D case.

>>>Paul, your search rules out many of these
>
>>Yes, but with a very minor modification, it becomes equivalent.

>Let me see if I have this right- the set of 1-D scales meeting your
>condition is a subset of the scales meeting the MOS condition.

Right. If you allow for larger steps of the opposite sign from the
unison
vector, but not the same sign, then you get MOS.

>Since the endpoints of the chain are the only notes that can change
when
>the scale is transposed by the generator, only those seconds
adjacent to
>them matter. And of these, only the ones that are in the same
direction as
>the unison vector matter. And of these, you only need to check
one, since
>the scale is symmetrical.

Sure -- in the n-tone chain, the interval spanning m tones in the
chain
occurs n-m+1 times.

>>>When they are transposed by any of their unit vectors, no
changing notes
>>>hop over unchanging notes.
>
>>Well, in the 1-D case, if that's your only criterion, then there
are
non-MOS
>>scales that qualify.

>Yes, and I wonder if there's as simple a test to find them as your
MOS
test.

Hmm . . . It's sort of like propriety but weaker. What should we
name it?

>>So to make any progress I need to know how many pitches you, Carl,
would
>>allow to change in the 2-D case.

>Let's simply insist that the scale is connected and that no
changing notes
>jump over unchanging notes when the scale is transposed by one step
on the
>triangular lattice. This is sufficient

but not a necessary condition

>to get the normal 1-D MOS's, in
>case the non-connected 1-D MOS's mentioned above don't work out.

Huh? What non-connected 1-D MOS's? I thought I showed that there are
none.

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Message: 14
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 15:56:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: george zelenz <ploo@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Re: fretless guitar

>and I might consider an ebow for melodic playing.
>I believe Nguyen Le may play fretless ebow guitar
>on some of his recordings.
>
>Bob Valentine
>
He does indeed. Very well.

George
>>You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe
through
>email. Send an empty email to one of these addresses:
> tuning-subscribe@onelist.com - subscribe to the tuning list.
> tuning-unsubscribe@onelist.com - unsubscribe from the tuning
list.
> tuning-digest@onelist.com - switch your subscription to digest
mode.
> tuning-normal@onelist.com - switch your subscription to normal
mode.

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Message: 15
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 16:03:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: george zelenz <ploo@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: nguyen le is...

>>
>
>Who's Nguyen Le? The name sounds familiar.
>

He is a Paris France born vietnamese guitarist/ composer. Influenced
quite
alot by Allan Holdsworth. His album tales from viet-nam is quite
good. As
could be expected, much glissando in voices, and juicy scales from
native
instruments. Good album. George
>
>--
>* D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
>* xouoxno@virtulink.com
>*
>* J u x t a p o s i t i o n N e t R a d i o
>* M E L A v i r t u a l d r e a m house monitor
>*
>* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm
>
>>You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe
through
>email. Send an empty email to one of these addresses:
> tuning-subscribe@onelist.com - subscribe to the tuning list.
> tuning-unsubscribe@onelist.com - unsubscribe from the tuning
list.
> tuning-digest@onelist.com - switch your subscription to digest
mode.
> tuning-normal@onelist.com - switch your subscription to normal
mode.

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Message: 16
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 15:03:28 -0700
From: "John A. deLaubenfels" <jadl@idcomm.com>
Subject: Real Audio trix

OK! Figured out how to force Real Audio to download a file for
later
consumption, at least on my Windows 95/98 platforms.

. From Explorer (not Internet Explorer, but the local one), pick
View, Folder options, File types (from Win95, View, Options,
File types).

. Slide down the list till you get to RealAudio; there may be one
or more. For each...

. Click Edit, then turn ON the box "Confirm Open after Download",
then OK, OK, OK.

. Now whenever you click on a Real Audio file, you'll get a
chance
to download it instead of playing it.

There's still the hassle of the .ram file vs. the .ra file. You
have to
get "past" the .ram file by examining its contents, then specifying
them as the URL address - this lets you download the actual file.
Once
you get the hang, you can guess the actual file name and skip
downloading the .ram file.

I'm just a "download it for later (repeated) consumption" kind of
guy;
also my fast internet connection is at work, where (for some odd
reason)
the computers have no sound cards!

JdL

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Message: 17
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 17:26:12 -0400
From: "Paul H. Erlich" <PErlich@Acadian-Asset.com>
Subject: RE: RE: FRETLESS GUITARS

>I've heard a fretless classical
>that sounded terrible.

Pat Metheny plays a great-sounding one on _Imaginary Day_.

>31 tone equal has much better approximations of JI intervals than
12.

Within the 7-limit, the 3:2 is the exception. And not a few JI folks
around
here really want the 3:2 within 2 cents of just. To me, the 5 cent
error in
31-equal gives a not unpleasant beating. Besides, meantone
(~31-equal) was
standard for several hundred years.

>You
>wouldn't loose sustain, and your average audience wouldn't hear the
>difference. Those who did, would probably like it. Cadences would
have
the
>same meaning, but sound better in tune.

But if you've heard Jon Catler's fretless work, you could never tell
him he
could do it all just as well on his 31-equal guitar. Also, if you
specifically want to articulate the syntonic comma (for some highly
non-meantone effects), something like 34-equal would be better. My
22-equal
guitar is capable of a whole other world of possibilities. Etc. etc.

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Message: 18
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 17:29:24 -0400
From: "Paul H. Erlich" <PErlich@Acadian-Asset.com>
Subject: RE: RE: That Scale

>Yes. This is what I would expect "inversion" to mean, but it
contradicts
>the usual meaning wrt chord inversions.

I know. I think I picked up this non-usual usage from Daniel Wolf. I
should
try to drop it.

>I did it because Dan did it!

Oh!

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Message: 19
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 17:38:17 -0400
From: "Paul H. Erlich" <PErlich@Acadian-Asset.com>
Subject: RE: Fretless guitar

John Link wrote,

>So the three of you play fretless guitar, and now I wonder whether
any of
>you live in the vicinity of New York City so that I might see your
>instruments. Or could anybody direct me to other players of the
fretless
>guitar that live near me?

Jon Catler lives in NYC! Try the Freenote website.

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Message: 20
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 17:59:11 -0400
From: "Paul H. Erlich" <PErlich@Acadian-Asset.com>
Subject: RE: RE: That Scale

Graham Breed wrote,

>Now we do have all the intervals from the 11-limit, it may be worth
using
>the other lattice explained here:

>http://x31eq.com/lattice.htm#11limit

I see a section on 7-limit, but not on 11-limit, at that page.

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Message: 21
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 23:12:10 -0700
From: "D.Stearns" <stearns@capecod.net>
Subject: consistency

Though I'm really just starting to take a look at it, I seem to be
finding consistency a rather slippery concept to lineup with some
pretty general ways of going about things... for example: In
something
as common as the standard JI major scale (1/1, 9/8, 5/4, 4/3, 3/2,
5/3, 15/8, 2/1), 26e, which is consistent through the 13-limit,
would
seem to be inconsistent not only because of the 15/8, but also
because
of the inconsistent (i.e. not the best ((LOG(N)-LOG(D))*(n/LOG(2))
approximation if N/D=32/27 and n=26) 7/26 32/27 between the 4/3 and
the 9/8... while on the other hand you have say the Pythagorean 1/1,
9/8, 81/64, 4/3, 3/2, 27/16, 243/128, 2/1, which would seem to be
entirely consistent in 5e despite the fact that 81/64 and 4/3 are
both
approximated by 2/5, and that 243/128 and 2/1 are both approximated
by
5/5... So I guess some of the things I'm wondering are these: Is
consistency more of a theoretically useful concept, or is it a
really
musically detectable (or useful) phenomena... to what sorts of
degrees
does the ear/brain ensemble of the conditioned and the innate
tolerate
extrapolations of the 5e example, or take exception to (or notice)
extrapolations of the 26e example?

Dan

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Message: 22
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 23:35:59 -0400
From: David Beardsley <xouoxno@home.com>
Subject: Re: RE: FRETLESS GUITARS

"Paul H. Erlich" wrote:

> >To me, the 5 cent error in
> >31-equal gives a not unpleasant beating.

Are you trying to say the beating is pleasant?

> Besides, meantone (~31-equal) was
> standard for several hundred years.

What happened to all instruments? A comet
hit the planet and wiped 'em all out?

--
* D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
* xouoxno@virtulink.com
*
* J u x t a p o s i t i o n N e t R a d i o
* M E L A v i r t u a l d r e a m house monitor
*
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm

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Message: 23
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 00:17:17 EDT
From: Zhang2323@aol.com
Subject: Re: consistency

In a message dated 10/27/99 12:14:51 AM, stearns@capecod.net wrote:

<<So I guess some of the things I'm wondering are these: Is

consistency more of a theoretically useful concept, or is it a
really

musically detectable (or useful) phenomena... to what sorts of
degrees

does the ear/brain ensemble of the conditioned and the innate
tolerate

extrapolations of the 5e example, or take exception to (or notice)

extrapolations of the 26e example?>>

Yes, interesting question.

I personally find scales with
wildly un-equal intervals (i.e. Thai scales, Balinese 'Pelog'
tunings) quite "noticable"... "spicey."

Wendy Carlos used a 15 TET scale on her "Tales of Heaven
& Hell" CD and has this to say: "... one of the most fascinating
and exotic scales around. It's also a thorny tuning to sing and
play in."

I like scales/tunings that "stand out"... that have "a life of
their own"... I am not the least afraid of a little "jarring effect"
in my music (ask John Chalmers). Maybe cuz I come to this from
a self-taught percussionist's background (I've played a lotta
odd found objects & created lotsa "sound-makers")... & cuz I have
done some of "circuit-bending" of thriftstore electronic toys (gonna

be soon doing some serious microtonally-scaled digital sampling).

zHANg

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Message: 24
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 00:27:30 -0400
From: David Beardsley <xouoxno@virtulink.com>
Subject: Ustad Mashkoor Ali Khan Concert in NJ

An Evening of Hindustani Vocal

Featuring
Ustad Maskoor Ali Khan (Vocal)

Pt. Ananda Gopal Bandopadhyay (Tabla)
Pt. Jyoti Goho (Harmonium)

At the residence of
Mr & Mrs Nirmalya Chaterjee
Date 29th October, Friday
Time 8 PM

Contact Numbers:
609-936-0029
732-329-2084

Donation $12, per person

Directions:
1. On Rt. 1 South take Hightstown Exit Jug Handle left onto Rt 571.
2. At Lanwin Blvd Traffic Light take right.
3. Take first right onto Concord.
4. Take next right onto Revere Court.
Address: 4 Revere Court, Princeton Junction.

--
* D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
* xouoxno@virtulink.com
*
* J u x t a p o s i t i o n N e t R a d i o
* M E L A v i r t u a l d r e a m house monitor
*
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm

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RE: Digest Number 368

🔗Stearns, Greg <STEARNSG@xxx.xxxx.xxxx>

🔗Paul Hahn <Paul-Hahn@xxxxxxx.xxxxx.xxxx>

🔗Dale Scott <adelscott@xxxx.xxxxxx.xxxx>