Spirituality and tuning

Actually, from what I've learned over the years about tuning, most every culture that I've read about associated tunings with spiritual elements...I actually see no barriers between secular, scientific, and spiritual...that's because there are none. When we tap into music/tunings, we are tapping into the foundations of the Universal structure...so, it feels real artificial for me to try to separate tunings from the rest of the Universe...best...Hstick

Hi

Not only tunings , as base of music expression , but the expressions
itself is related to ultra-psychological needs of human being.

In iran , different tuning species of a mode or dastgah is related to
an in-time sense and ecstasy which can't be measured by science , what
we hear is only tuning but what we feel is a world of out-of-reach
ultra-things.

________________________________

From: Neil Haverstick [mailto:microstick@msn.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 10:58 PM
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [tuning] Spirituality and tuning

Actually, from what I've learned over the years about tuning, most
every
culture that I've read about associated tunings with spiritual
elements...I
actually see no barriers between secular, scientific, and
spiritual...that's
because there are none. When we tap into music/tunings, we are tapping
into
the foundations of the Universal structure...so, it feels real
artificial
for me to try to separate tunings from the rest of the
Universe...best...Hstick

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Brother Mohajeri, It's good to hear from you again! As you so wonderfully put, the thing with us Easterners (even those Westernized ones like myself) is that we constantly experience a sense of the divine in sublime art forms and refined cultural phenomena. The intricate nature of an Iranian tapestry, or a miniature from 13th Century Persia is enough to create anachronistic synesthesia, creating ripples in time and space. Now this is metaphysics indeed.

Speaking of which, I have recently discovered another type of magical comma by this operation:

Subtract a Ptolemy's comma (difference between 11:10 and 10:9) from a pure third (5:4 / 100:99 = 99:80)

Subtract another Ptolemy's comma from that (99:80 / 100:99 = 9801:8000 )

Add a major whole tone to the 11th harmonic (9:8 * 12:11= 27:22 Zalzal Wosta)

Take the difference between the two (9801:8000 / 27:22)

And you end up with 4000:3993, an intriguing interval that is 3.0323 cents, which I will call the Yarman Kleisma.

Cordially,
Ozan

----- Original Message -----
From: Mohajeri Shahin
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 23 Şubat 2005 Çarşamba 7:04
Subject: RE: [tuning] Spirituality and tuning

Hi

Not only tunings , as base of music expression , but the expressions itself is related to ultra-psychological needs of human being.

In iran , different tuning species of a mode or dastgah is related to an in-time sense and ecstasy which can’t be measured by science , what we hear is only tuning but what we feel is a world of out-of-reach ultra-things.

hi Ozan,

i've added the "monzo addition" (vector addition), and cents,
to your calculations, and made a couple of comments.

(if viewing this on the Yahoo interface, you'll have to
click "reply" to see it formatted properly.)

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@s...> wrote:

> Speaking of which, I have recently discovered another type
> of magical comma by this operation:
>
> Subtract a Ptolemy's comma (difference between 11:10 and 10:9)
> from a pure third (5:4 / 100:99 = 99:80)

2 3 5 7 11 ratio ~cents

[ 1 -2, 1 0 0> 10 / 9 182.4037121
- [-1 0, -1 0 1> / 11 / 10 - 165.0042285
------------------- ----------- --------------
[ 2 -2, 2 0 -1> 100 / 99 17.39948363 Ptolemy's comma

2 3 5 7 11 ratio ~cents

[-2 0, 1 0 0> 5 / 4 386.3137139
- [ 2 -2, 2 0 -1> / 100 / 99 - 17.39948363 Ptolemy's comma
------------------- ----------- --------------
[-4 2, -1 0 1> 99 / 80 368.9142302

> Subtract another Ptolemy's comma from that
> (99:80 / 100:99 = 9801:8000 )

2 3 5 7 11 ratio ~cents

[-4 2, -1 0 1> 99 / 80 368.9142302
- [ 2 -2, 2 0 -1> / 100 / 99 - 17.39948363 Ptolemy comma
------------------- ----------- --------------
[-6 4, -3 0 2> 9801 / 8000 351.5147466

> Add a major whole tone to the 11th harmonic
> (9:8 * 12:11= 27:22 Zalzal Wosta)

2 3 5 7 11 ratio ~cents

[-3 2, 0 0 0> 9 / 8 203.9100017
- [ 2 1, 0 0 -1> / 12 / 11 - 150.6370585
------------------- ----------- --------------
[-1 3, 0 0 -1> 27 / 22 354.5470602 Zalzal Wosta

your math is correct, but 12:11 is not the 11th harmonic.
strictly speaking, the 11th harmonic is 11:1 ...
in its octave-reduced "normalized" form it's 11:8.

> Take the difference between the two (9801:8000 / 27:22)
>
> And you end up with 4000:3993, an intriguing interval
> that is 3.0323 cents, which I will call the Yarman Kleisma.

you did your division here backwards: 4000:3993 is the
result of 27:22 / 9801/8000.

2 3 5 7 11 ratio ~cents

[-1 3, 0 0 -1> 27 / 22 354.5470602
- [-6 4, -3 0 2> / 9801 / 8000 - 351.5147466
------------------- ----------- ---------------
[ 5 -1, 3 0 -3> 4000 / 3993 3.032313635 Yarman kleisma

i was hoping to find this in my "big list of 11-limit intervals"
http://tonalsoft.com/enc/interval-list.htm

but unfortunately, the exponent of 11 lies outside my
arbitrary cut-off point.

-monz

Ouch, and you had to go reveal my ignorance in mathematics! Thanks for the correction though. But what is the traditional name of 12:11 in the West? We Easterners recognize it as the mujannab interval of Maqam Music. Do you think it worth to include the `Yarman kleisma` as part of the comma family?

Cordially,
Ozan
----- Original Message -----
From: monz
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 23 Şubat 2005 Çarşamba 9:09
Subject: [tuning] Re: Spirituality and tuning

hi Ozan,

i've added the "monzo addition" (vector addition), and cents,
to your calculations, and made a couple of comments.

Please disregard the previous temperament that I miscalculated in haste, the correct 12 tone scale micro-tempered by a Yarman Kleisma is here:

0: 1/1 0.000 unison, perfect prime
1: 92.459 cents 92.459
2: 197.845 cents 197.845
3: 290.304 cents 290.304
4: 395.691 cents 395.691
5: 501.077 cents 501.077
6: 593.536 cents 593.536
7: 698.923 cents 698.923
8: 791.381 cents 791.381
9: 896.768 cents 896.768
10: 989.227 cents 989.227
11: 1094.613 cents 1094.613
12: 2/1 1200.000 octave

Ozan,

You say it is a magical comma. Please tell us why that is so, and how you
can use it in composition or performance.

Regards,
Yahya
-----Original Message-----
From: Ozan Yarman
Sent: Wednesday 23 February 2005 16:51 pm
Subject: Re: [tuning] Spirituality and tuning

Brother Mohajeri, It's good to hear from you again! As you so wonderfully
put, the thing with us Easterners (even those Westernized ones like myself)
is that we constantly experience a sense of the divine in sublime art forms
and refined cultural phenomena. The intricate nature of an Iranian tapestry,
or a miniature from 13th Century Persia is enough to create anachronistic
synesthesia, creating ripples in time and space. Now this is metaphysics
indeed.

Speaking of which, I have recently discovered another type of magical
comma by this operation:

Subtract a Ptolemy's comma (difference between 11:10 and 10:9) from a pure
third (5:4 / 100:99 = 99:80)

Subtract another Ptolemy's comma from that (99:80 / 100:99 = 9801:8000 )

Add a major whole tone to the 11th harmonic (9:8 * 12:11= 27:22 Zalzal
Wosta)

Take the difference between the two (9801:8000 / 27:22)

And you end up with 4000:3993, an intriguing interval that is 3.0323
cents, which I will call the Yarman Kleisma.

Cordially,
Ozan

----- Original Message -----
From: Mohajeri Shahin
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 23 �ubat 2005 �ar�amba 7:04
Subject: RE: [tuning] Spirituality and tuning

Hi

Not only tunings , as base of music expression , but the expressions
itself is related to ultra-psychological needs of human being.

In iran , different tuning species of a mode or dastgah is related to
an in-time sense and ecstasy which can�t be measured by science , what we
hear is only tuning but what we feel is a world of out-of-reach
ultra-things.

--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date: 22/2/05

Ah, that word was but with ignorance uttered... Brother, I am not knowledged enough in these matters to say how such an interval might be used in composition and performance. It might eventually boil down to the importance one attributes to a particular interval. Paul seems to dismiss it on the grounds that it does not appear to be an interval of equivalance, nor is it vanishable. The way I miscontrued the concept of temperament shows my incompetence insofar in tuning.

Yet, someone else might still find a practical use for this Kleisma.

Cordially,
Ozan
----- Original Message -----
From: Yahya Abdal-Aziz
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 24 Şubat 2005 Perşembe 3:04
Subject: RE: [tuning] Spirituality and tuning

Ozan,

You say it is a magical comma. Please tell us why that is so, and how you can use it in composition or performance.

Regards,
Yahya

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@s...> wrote:

> Paul seems to dismiss it on the grounds that it does not appear to
>be an interval of equivalance, nor is it vanishable.

Ozan, you seem to me misunderstanding me. It [4000:3993] is most
certainly a "vanishable" interval -- as my last couple of posts
mentioned, there are indeed temperaments based on the vanishing of
this interval. Could you re-read my last few posts on the subject
please?

What I was trying to point out was that if the temperament is based
on a chain of (octave-reduced) fifths, the relevant "vanishing
commas" wouldn't contain any higher powers (squares, cubes, etc.) of
primes above 3 in their factorizations. If you don't see why that is,
let me know, and I'll try to explain it more slowly and carefully.

> Yet, someone else might still find a practical use for this Kleisma.

It's already happened -- on the tuning-math list.