FRETLESS GUITARS

On 10/19/99 I wrote:

I have a vocal quintet, ALMOST ACAPPELLA, which sings my original
arrangements of classical and jazz compositions (Chopin, Debussy,
Mussorgsky, Satie, Miles Davis, Chick Corea, Bill Evans, Earl Zindars). I
also play guitar in the group, often bass lines. It is often quite
noticeable how the tempered tuning of the guitar (innacuarate at that) is
out of tune with the voices. I am considering having a fretless guitar made
and would like to learn the experience of others learning to play such a
thing. I used to play acoustic bass, so I don't think I'd have much trouble
playing single lines in tune, but I wonder whether parallel sixths, at
moderate tempo, would be all that difficult? What about parallel open
triads (e.g. on the 1st, 3rd, and 4th strings: D A F#, E B G, F# C# A, G D
B, A E C#, etc.)?

And I haven't had a single response. Surely one of you guitar makers or
players must have some experience you could share with me.

Thanks in advance,

John Link
New York City

John Link wrote:

> I have a vocal quintet, ALMOST ACAPPELLA, which sings my original
> arrangements of classical and jazz compositions (Chopin, Debussy,
> Mussorgsky, Satie, Miles Davis, Chick Corea, Bill Evans, Earl Zindars). I
> also play guitar in the group, often bass lines. It is often quite
> noticeable how the tempered tuning of the guitar (innacuarate at that) is
> out of tune with the voices. I am considering having a fretless guitar made
> and would like to learn the experience of others learning to play such a
> thing. I used to play acoustic bass, so I don't think I'd have much trouble
> playing single lines in tune, but I wonder whether parallel sixths, at
> moderate tempo, would be all that difficult?

I guess the slower the tempo, the easier it's going
to be!

> What about parallel open
> triads (e.g. on the 1st, 3rd, and 4th strings: D A F#, E B G, F# C# A, G D
> B, A E C#, etc.)?

That's much harder. Single notes are easier than dyads,
dyads are easier than triads. Personally, I'd forget about
triads. I've been playing fretless bass for a few months (3?)
and triads are a lot of work. But I have been playing
Dobro for a few years (2 1/2?) and maybe you might want to
look into slide for in-tune chords. (To somehow
validate my comments, I've been making music
for 32 years and microtonal for 6).

> And I haven't had a single response. Surely one of you guitar makers or
> players must have some experience you could share with me.

I hope that's some help. I saw your previous post but
I'm a busy guy.

--
* D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
* xouoxno@virtulink.com
*
* J u x t a p o s i t i o n N e t R a d i o
* M E L A v i r t u a l d r e a m house monitor
*
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm

>I am considering having a fretless guitar made
>and would like to learn the experience of others learning to play such a
>thing. I used to play acoustic bass, so I don't think I'd have much trouble
>playing single lines in tune, but I wonder whether parallel sixths, at
>moderate tempo, would be all that difficult? What about parallel open
>triads (e.g. on the 1st, 3rd, and 4th strings: D A F#, E B G, F# C# A, G D
>B, A E C#, etc.)?

Jaco could do it.

with practice, it shouldn't be too difficult.
I have a fretless Ibanez. (yanked the frets myself).
Practice is neccessary though...

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From: johnlink@con2.com (John Link)
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To: tuning@onelist.com
Subject: [tuning] FRETLESS GUITARS
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 23:32:34 -0400
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On 10/19/99 I wrote:

I have a vocal quintet, ALMOST ACAPPELLA, which sings my original
arrangements of classical and jazz compositions (Chopin, Debussy,
Mussorgsky, Satie, Miles Davis, Chick Corea, Bill Evans, Earl Zindars). I
also play guitar in the group, often bass lines. It is often quite
noticeable how the tempered tuning of the guitar (innacuarate at that) is
out of tune with the voices. I am considering having a fretless guitar made
and would like to learn the experience of others learning to play such a
thing. I used to play acoustic bass, so I don't think I'd have much trouble
playing single lines in tune, but I wonder whether parallel sixths, at
moderate tempo, would be all that difficult? What about parallel open
triads (e.g. on the 1st, 3rd, and 4th strings: D A F#, E B G, F# C# A, G D
B, A E C#, etc.)?

And I haven't had a single response. Surely one of you guitar makers or
players must have some experience you could share with me.

Thanks in advance,

John Link
New York City

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<< text3.html >>

> playing single lines in tune, but I wonder whether parallel sixths, at
> moderate tempo, would be all that difficult? What about parallel open
> triads (e.g. on the 1st, 3rd, and 4th strings: D A F#, E B G,
> F# C# A, G D
> B, A E C#, etc.)?

> From: "Paul H. Erlich" <PErlich@Acadian-Asset.com>
> Jaco could do it.

Jaco could do anything (except live happily ever after). I answer your
question with a question: How hard are you willing to work at it?

> From: David Beardsley <xouoxno@home.com>
> Dobro for a few years (2 1/2?) and maybe you might want to
> look into slide for in-tune chords.

Excellent suggestion - why didn't I think of that? Look into playing slide
with an open tuning on any kind of guitar. Just raise the action if
necessary.

What type of guitar are you considering? Classical, Steel String, Electric?
Do you play fingerstyle or with a pick?

Fretless guitars are prone to horrible sustain problems. A sarod is like a
fretless guitar, but it's fingered with the fingernail (potentially painful,
and difficult - lot's of Krazy glue on broken nails) and it's got about 20
sympathetic strings to give it sustain. I've heard a fretless classical
that sounded terrible. Fretless electric guitars are the most practical.
Jon Catler claims that hard epoxy is the best material for fretless guitar
fingerboards. There are fretless banjos, but I don't much like the sound of
them either.

Tune the guitar to your favorite chord fingering, and use that same
inversion up and down the neck.

If all your music is in 4 or 5 keys, we could work out a meantone system
that works well in those keys, or even JI for all your favorite chords.
These kind of fretboards are often the most artistic looking and rewarding
to play. Basically what Catler uses now.

31 tone equal has much better approximations of JI intervals than 12. You
wouldn't loose sustain, and your average audience wouldn't hear the
difference. Those who did, would probably like it. Cadences would have the
same meaning, but sound better in tune.

Another idea is a scalloped fretboard. That way at least you can sharpen
some strings with finger pressure.

Last thought: Is your guitar really 12tet? An improperly positioned
saddle, or high action could cause the guitar to play very out of tune.
Maybe having the action and intonation adjusted really carefully and
possibly some nut compensation would fix you right up?

---
Glen Peterson
Peterson Stringed Instruments
30 Elm Street North Andover, MA 01845
(978) 975-1527
http://www.organicdesign.org/peterson

>I've heard a fretless classical
>that sounded terrible.

Pat Metheny plays a great-sounding one on _Imaginary Day_.

>31 tone equal has much better approximations of JI intervals than 12.

Within the 7-limit, the 3:2 is the exception. And not a few JI folks around
here really want the 3:2 within 2 cents of just. To me, the 5 cent error in
31-equal gives a not unpleasant beating. Besides, meantone (~31-equal) was
standard for several hundred years.

>You
>wouldn't loose sustain, and your average audience wouldn't hear the
>difference. Those who did, would probably like it. Cadences would have
the
>same meaning, but sound better in tune.

But if you've heard Jon Catler's fretless work, you could never tell him he
could do it all just as well on his 31-equal guitar. Also, if you
specifically want to articulate the syntonic comma (for some highly
non-meantone effects), something like 34-equal would be better. My 22-equal
guitar is capable of a whole other world of possibilities. Etc. etc.

"Paul H. Erlich" wrote:

> >To me, the 5 cent error in
> >31-equal gives a not unpleasant beating.

Are you trying to say the beating is pleasant?

> Besides, meantone (~31-equal) was
> standard for several hundred years.

What happened to all instruments? A comet
hit the planet and wiped 'em all out?

--
* D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
* xouoxno@virtulink.com
*
* J u x t a p o s i t i o n N e t R a d i o
* M E L A v i r t u a l d r e a m house monitor
*
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm

> >To me, the 5 cent error in
> >31-equal gives a not unpleasant beating.

>Are you trying to say the beating is pleasant?

Sure, like a Leslie speaker is pleasant.

>> Besides, meantone (~31-equal) was
>> standard for several hundred years.

>What happened to all instruments? A comet
>hit the planet and wiped 'em all out?

What are you talking about?

> >To me, the 5 cent error in
> >31-equal gives a not unpleasant beating.

>Are you trying to say the beating is pleasant?

hey... some people are into S&M ;)

sorry... couldn't resist