Humanism vs all forms of tyranny

The most beautiful aspect of humanism as demonstrated by dear Yahya and Kraig is that all naturally evolved cultures of our species are the respectable products of humanity. Consequently, none is `superior` to the other as if by racism or nationalism. A gothic architecture contains as much artistic beauty as an Islamic mosque or palace from the same era, although a completely different style! Likewise, it is absurd to assume that a particular genre of music is inferior just because it does not conform to the rules that satisfy a particular listener somewhere else...

This, however, is a sad little detail Turkey has not been able to overcome yet. The reason why certain `so-called universal` composers around here are not acknowledged around the world is probably due to the fact that their works are clouded by some supremacist ideology leading to a despicable form of bigotry. In my opinion, the world of music should openly shun this primitive mentality wherever it may be found...

Cordially,
Ozan

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@s...> wrote:
> In my opinion, the world of music should openly shun this primitive
mentality wherever it may be found...

Maybe not "shun" it, for that certainly put us in a judgemental role,
not that different from the "supremecist" attitude you mention. Maybe
best is to offer alternatives so compelling that the "primitives" fade
away by virtue of their own lack of soul.

Best,
Jon

Why not "shun" it? The deliberation you put forth cannot be more beautifully summarized by the verb "shun". Certainly, yours is no less a self-vindictive judgment of humanism as to what is humanist and what is not (without any subjective references to supremacism).

Cordially,
Ozan
----- Original Message -----
From: Jon Szanto
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 24 Ocak 2005 Pazartesi 19:04
Subject: [tuning] Re: Humanism vs all forms of tyranny

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@s...> wrote:
> In my opinion, the world of music should openly shun this primitive
mentality wherever it may be found...

Maybe not "shun" it, for that certainly put us in a judgemental role,
not that different from the "supremecist" attitude you mention. Maybe
best is to offer alternatives so compelling that the "primitives" fade
away by virtue of their own lack of soul.

Best,
Jon

Might it be said, too, that many of the musicians around here have been "shunned" already themselves, or so roundly ignored as to amount to same? A big part of my engagement here (for what it's worth) is to in to in some small way mitigate the the "tyranny" of Western 'commercial' (and classical?) music and the 'blinders' so cheerfully doled out by its minions.

In cases where some art-form would go completely extinct without state sponsporship, we can only be grateful, with all due reserve, of course, to said state.

And in cases where someone's fanatacism about the rightness of their ideas is perhaps off-putting, we might take it with a grain of salt, because it keeps them producing otherwise excellent work. Perhaps?

Jon Szanto <JSZANTO@ADNC.COM> wrote:

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" wrote:
> In my opinion, the world of music should openly shun this primitive
mentality wherever it may be found...

Maybe not "shun" it, for that certainly put us in a judgemental role,
not that different from the "supremecist" attitude you mention. Maybe
best is to offer alternatives so compelling that the "primitives" fade
away by virtue of their own lack of soul.

Best,
Jon

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Dear Pete, might we learn whose fanaticism we are talking about here? I'm already inclined to `shun` all state-sponsored and/or commercially endorsed art forms on the grounds that they are very much polluted with the ideal of mindless consumption. Maybe humanism is too much overrated nowadays, or not?

Sincerely,
Ozan
----- Original Message -----
From: Pete McRae
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 24 Ocak 2005 Pazartesi 19:34
Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: Humanism vs all forms of tyranny

Might it be said, too, that many of the musicians around here have been "shunned" already themselves, or so roundly ignored as to amount to same? A big part of my engagement here (for what it's worth) is to in to in some small way mitigate the the "tyranny" of Western 'commercial' (and classical?) music and the 'blinders' so cheerfully doled out by its minions.

In cases where some art-form would go completely extinct without state sponsporship, we can only be grateful, with all due reserve, of course, to said state.

And in cases where someone's fanatacism about the rightness of their ideas is perhaps off-putting, we might take it with a grain of salt, because it keeps them producing otherwise excellent work. Perhaps?

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@s...> wrote:
> Dear Pete, might we learn whose fanaticism we are talking about
here? I'm already inclined to `shun` all state-sponsored and/or
commercially endorsed art forms on the grounds that they are very
much polluted with the ideal of mindless consumption. Maybe humanism
is too much overrated nowadays, or not?
>
> Sincerely,
> Ozan
>

Dear Ozan,

I'd have to say here, my own (fanaticism)! To the extent that
anyone has intense sympathies or antipathies they are at risk [of
being caught up in bigotry, prejudice, tyranny, etc.]. Hence, the
appeal of most commercial product. It frequently panders to a false
sense of "moderation in all things", and/or salves the consumers'
conscience (if they actually have one :-) that what they just
bought is "reasonable".

But "mindless consumption" is just a slogan against people who
aren't buying what I'm 'selling', I'm afraid. Maybe that's just me,
in a rare moment of... :-)

I agree with you in spirit, I'm almost sure! It just sounds a bit
overzealous, from here.

Humanism means to me a kind of reverence for all that is human,
foibles especially.

Best,

Pete

Ozan,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@s...> wrote:
> Why not "shun" it? The deliberation you put forth cannot be more
beautifully summarized by the verb "shun". Certainly, yours is no less
a self-vindictive judgment of humanism as to what is humanist and what
is not (without any subjective references to supremacism).

Sometimes it is difficult to put into words what we are thinking, and
I know that English is not your native language (though you speak
clearly and eloquently).

My sentiment is thus: there have been occasions in history where
"shunning" is an activist movement, where entire groups of people
agree to "shun" some other group. Whether their motivations are right
or not, what bothers me is a group-think mentality. I prefer to engage
the opposition (in this case, your musical opponents) not by an
organized movement of negativity, but with a coordinated creation of
positive alternatives.

On a personal level, I would most certainly choose to ignore boorish
behavior on a compositional, educational, or performance level. But I
wouldn't choose to develop a counter-movement based only on the
attempt to negate them.

I hope this is more clear.

Best,
Jon

Joe, I did not have the impression that shunning tyranny necessarily requires the backing of a political movement. The great philosophers and musicians of our history are very much known to have shunned all sorts of segragationist propaganda in favor of a higher humane ideal without feeling the need to partake in political activism. Also, feeling sympathy with a worthwhile cause on an individual basis does not necessitate open advocacy of a united coalition or its opposition.

My `war` against those who, by their very existence are inclined to the supremacy of their culture, is a very personal one which, I hope, can succeed in drawing some sympathy and positive support from international circles, and thus, lead to some creative solutions.

Sincerely,
Ozan
----- Original Message -----
From: Jon Szanto
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 25 Ocak 2005 Salı 2:01
Subject: [tuning] Re: Humanism vs all forms of tyranny

Ozan,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@s...> wrote:
> Why not "shun" it? The deliberation you put forth cannot be more
beautifully summarized by the verb "shun". Certainly, yours is no less
a self-vindictive judgment of humanism as to what is humanist and what
is not (without any subjective references to supremacism).

Sometimes it is difficult to put into words what we are thinking, and
I know that English is not your native language (though you speak
clearly and eloquently).

My sentiment is thus: there have been occasions in history where
"shunning" is an activist movement, where entire groups of people
agree to "shun" some other group. Whether their motivations are right
or not, what bothers me is a group-think mentality. I prefer to engage
the opposition (in this case, your musical opponents) not by an
organized movement of negativity, but with a coordinated creation of
positive alternatives.

On a personal level, I would most certainly choose to ignore boorish
behavior on a compositional, educational, or performance level. But I
wouldn't choose to develop a counter-movement based only on the
attempt to negate them.

I hope this is more clear.

Best,
Jon

Dear Pete,

I agree with you that too much empathy can lead to extremism and acknowledge the fact that I'm no less a `zealot` compared to any other `fanatic` when it comes to defending my doctrines and beliefs. Nevertheless, I hope that this predisposition does not preclude my understanding of what is absolutely right and what is not. Accordingly, I view all claims to artistic, cultural, national, racial, ethnic, dogmatic superiority to be fundamentally flawed.

Regards,
Ozan
----- Original Message -----
From: ambassadorbob
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 24 Ocak 2005 Pazartesi 23:27
Subject: [tuning] Re: Humanism vs all forms of tyranny

Dear Ozan,

I'd have to say here, my own (fanaticism)! To the extent that
anyone has intense sympathies or antipathies they are at risk [of
being caught up in bigotry, prejudice, tyranny, etc.]. Hence, the
appeal of most commercial product. It frequently panders to a false
sense of "moderation in all things", and/or salves the consumers'
conscience (if they actually have one :-) that what they just
bought is "reasonable".

But "mindless consumption" is just a slogan against people who
aren't buying what I'm 'selling', I'm afraid. Maybe that's just me,
in a rare moment of... :-)

I agree with you in spirit, I'm almost sure! It just sounds a bit
overzealous, from here.

Humanism means to me a kind of reverence for all that is human,
foibles especially.

Best,

Pete