Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning Universal music education??

But unfortunately, we are still thinking in terms of a `universal music theory` that has no bearing whatsoever to the microtonal musics of the East. How, in the name of Allah, will a musician who only learns 12 `equally spaced` tones per octave succeed in understanding a Saba or Huzzam Saz-semai if it was brought before him/her? It is obvious that the classical guitar or similar instruments whose frets (valves/keys) are tuned to 12tET cannot possibly play the 11th harmonic, which is an essential component of many maqams (and I'm sure destgahs and rags too).

The limitations of standard Western instruments that creep into traditional ensembles around the world serves only to `temper` the exotic character of these musics. Turkey is a country that has gone far in this direction with very unpleasant results in my opinion. The most recent fiasco is a TV-show where amateur folk singers go on stage backed by electro-acoustic guitars and rock drums next to a band of amplified baglamas (ouch!).

What we need here is an all-encompassing approach where it will be possible for a musician to perform any authentic scale known to mankind given the oppurtunity.

Cordially,
Ozan Yarman

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@lumma.org>

>But unfortunately, we are still thinking in terms of a `universal music
>theory` that has no bearing whatsoever to the microtonal musics of the
>East. How, in the name of Allah, will a musician who only learns 12
>'equally spaced' tones per octave succeed in understanding a Saba or
>Huzzam Saz-semai if it was brought before him/her? It is obvious that
>the classical guitar or similar instruments whose frets (valves/keys)
>are tuned to 12tET cannot possibly play the 11th harmonic, which is an
>essential component of many maqams (and I'm sure destgahs and rags too).

Very well, but who is the "we" who still perpetuates this bias? I
think the whole point of this list is to go beyond 12...

>The limitations of standard Western instruments that creep into
>traditional ensembles around the world serves only to `temper` the
>exotic character of these musics. Turkey is a country that has gone
>far in this direction with very unpleasant results in my opinion.
>The most recent fiasco is a TV-show where amateur folk singers go
>on stage backed by electro-acoustic guitars and rock drums next to
>a band of amplified baglamas (ouch!).

Ouch indeed!

-Carl

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@superonline.com>

"we" in the general sense dear Carl.

----- Original Message -----
From: Carl Lumma
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 18 Ocak 2005 Salı 11:29
Subject: Re: [tuning] Universal music education??

Very well, but who is the "we" who still perpetuates this bias? I
think the whole point of this list is to go beyond 12...

Ouch indeed!

-Carl

🔗Aaron Wolf <backfromthesilo@yahoo.com>

For the record, I have successfully tuned chords including
harmonics 11 and beyond on fretted guitars (rendering all other
chord shapes or notes essentially useless) for the sake of
demonstration for students as well as personal enjoyment and
experience. In fact I got a friend to tune a second guitar so we
had two guitars with moveable chord shapes tuned to
harmonics up to 17 and then we could play together and play
parallel progressions. Still not very useful towards actual music,
but it was a lot of fun.

See in my position I see students who are not tied to anything
musically, are essentially beginners with no direction. They've
almost arbitrarily decided to play guitar because they know
someone else who does or just heard that it might be fun. I
wish I could present to them the option of playing microtonally
fretted guitars or something, but it just isn't realistic. So I try very
hard to explain that compromises and decisions about music
were pre-set for them when they chose guitar and they should
be aware of these and think outside the box. Still, am I as a
guitar teacher to tell every student to not play guitar but find a
better instrument? There exists a lot of legitimate music using
the guitar. I do tell my students that they need to trust their ears.
If they hear a certain pitch as in tune but the guitar is different
"you're right, the guitar is wrong." At this point I feel the best I can
do for these students is to make them aware of the
compromises in 12-tet so they don't have the bias and confusion
of most students, but in the end I still need to teach them to play
standard guitar progressions and repertoire and they want to
play the guitar songs they've heard.

Anyway, if I focused more on teaching voice and microtonal
composition and fretless guitar or whatever, I would not only
have much harder time finding work, but all those students that
randomly choose guitar would be worse off for ending up
instead with a typical teacher who wouldn't explain even basic
harmonics. If there existed cheap, beginner microtonal guitars
or something like that I could tell beginners that they had to start
with that and then later go to 12-tet if they really wanted. In fact if I
could only get ahold of such guitars I could singlehandedly
develop a small viable community of microtonalists around here.
If only. On the other hand, students do tend to want to play music
they've heard or their friends are playing, so that makes things a
little tougher.

-Aaron

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman"
<ozanyarman@s...> wrote:
> But unfortunately, we are still thinking in terms of a `universal
music theory` that has no bearing whatsoever to the microtonal
musics of the East. How, in the name of Allah, will a musician
who only learns 12 `equally spaced` tones per octave succeed in
understanding a Saba or Huzzam Saz-semai if it was brought
before him/her? It is obvious that the classical guitar or similar
instruments whose frets (valves/keys) are tuned to 12tET cannot
possibly play the 11th harmonic, which is an essential
component of many maqams (and I'm sure destgahs and rags
too).
>
> The limitations of standard Western instruments that creep
into traditional ensembles around the world serves only to
`temper` the exotic character of these musics. Turkey is a country
that has gone far in this direction with very unpleasant results in
my opinion. The most recent fiasco is a TV-show where amateur
folk singers go on stage backed by electro-acoustic guitars and
rock drums next to a band of amplified baglamas (ouch!).
>
> What we need here is an all-encompassing approach where it
will be possible for a musician to perform any authentic scale
known to mankind given the oppurtunity.
>
> Cordially,
> Ozan Yarman

🔗Afmmjr@aol.com

🔗Aaron Wolf <backfromthesilo@yahoo.com>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 1/18/2005 12:26:13 PM Eastern Standard
Time,
> backfromthesilo@y... writes:
> In fact if I
> could only get ahold of such guitars I could singlehandedly
> develop a small viable community of microtonalists around
here.
> Jon Catler has made necks for just this purpose. Contact him,
or me
> directly, to make an order. Johnny Reinhard

I know, but they aren't anywhere near close to affordable to a
beginner. But actually I should get one myself still. It's kinda
been on my wish list for a while except I kinda wish I could do my
own design and I really want a microtonal Chapman Stick
ideally. At any rate, what's the easiest route for myself to get a
microtonal (ideally just) guitar to get started in that direction?

-Aaron

🔗Afmmjr@aol.com

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@superonline.com>

🔗Aaron Wolf <backfromthesilo@yahoo.com>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman"
<ozanyarman@s...> wrote:
> Perhaps an add-on mechanism like adjustable microtonal
frets could do the trick?
>
> Regards,
> Ozan

You mean like these: http://www.chouard.de/

I'm very tempted to get one of those guitars. If this sort of thing
could be built for a Chapman Stick I'd get it right away. Or if I
simply was a little richer I'd get one as soon as I could. Oh the
poor life of a working musician... I seriously think actually that
such a mechanism being made widely available and affordable
would completely revolutionize music almost immediately. It just
seems to be too difficult to get something like that
mass-produced or get funding for such a project.

-Aaron

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@superonline.com>

That looks interesting, but how does it work, I could not comprehend...

Best,
Ozan
----- Original Message -----
From: Aaron Wolf
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 20 Ocak 2005 Perşembe 0:08
Subject: [tuning] Re: Universal music education??

You mean like these: http://www.chouard.de/

-Aaron

🔗Aaron Wolf <backfromthesilo@yahoo.com>

I believe they are spring loaded fret pieces on a sliding groove in
a metal bar or something. They can be moved by hand and
hence put to whatever tuning or position is wanted. So forget
calculating fret position and worries of issues with varying string
rigidity etc., it could just be moved until the actual heard or
measured pitch is as desired. If I had one I'd tell you more what I
thought of it. But there's a picture of one on John Schneider's
"Just Guitars" CD (an excellent highly recommended recording
featuring Harrison, Partch, Riley peices all on just intonation
guitar) so I assume he used it on at least one of the tracks. His
is all totally unusually positioned as opposed to the relatively
straight lines shown on the site.

-Aaron

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman"
<ozanyarman@s...> wrote:
> That looks interesting, but how does it work, I could not
comprehend...
>
> Best,
> Ozan
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Aaron Wolf
> To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: 20 Ocak 2005 Per<thorn>embe 0:08
> Subject: [tuning] Re: Universal music education??
>
>
>
>
> You mean like these: http://www.chouard.de/
>