dear ozan : thanks a lot for reply !!

Dear ozan

Salute upon you and all ,,,,, happy new year..

I was here all the time and looking to mails and learning from group.

Science of tuning is such a beatiful thing that attracted me as a drummer and composer.

It was a question for me all the time in my musical life that if it is the irregullar intervallic structure of persian music tha causes to think that it is not for example scientific?

Not only the western music players but some of the traditional misicians insist on the out –of – formula structure of it.

I'm iranian but not denounce other cultures (as you mentioned) but I am proud of microtonal structure of persian music , eastern music and other because of their

micro-beauties!!

It is told that the structure of persian music is pythagorean but if it is so?

It is only one choice. Dear monzo has made a page about one the tetrachords in segah played by maestro ebadi …. It is in 17-edo.

We know that 17 is related to 34,51,….. and 51 is near to 53.so we may assum that there is a spectrum of edo's with 53 in center:

……. , 50 , 51 , 52 , 53 , 54 , 55 , 56…….

This one of the trends for its intervallic structures. It is only in theory to have ratio of perfect fifth , the instrument will tell u how to tune your frets.

The just scales are another choices which may be more realistic.

So , I believe that the wide spread of intervals must be wide , each formula for scale is only one sample . purity of sound also is only one choice , the persian music look for the methaphysical sence not only in pure sound but in another tastes.

All iranian say that the problem is in its irregullar microtones limits.but I say that we ourselves are the problem , we do not know anything about interval relation in iran theoritically but use the musically.

In west all try to find new scales with new tastes , we have them in iran , in middle east , in another places , different , from player to player.

I have invented !!! a system of accidentals based on sori and koron of mr.vaziri with accuracy of ± 4.17 cent , because I think that in persian music it is a good stimation for intervals.

But about my musics , you can't download them , if your problem is this , I try to send them.

Shahin mohajeri

tombak player and researcher , composer

www.geocities.com/acousticsoftombak

my tombak musics : www.rhythmweb.com/gdg

my articles in harrmonytalk:

www.harmonytalk.com/archives/000296.html

www.harmonytalk.com/archives/000288.html

hi Mohajeri,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Mohajeri Shahin" <shahinm@k...> wrote:

>
> <snip>
>
> It is told that the structure of persian music is pythagorean
> but if it is so?
>
> It is only one choice. Dear monzo has made a page about one
> the tetrachords in segah played by maestro ebadi ….
> It is in 17-edo.

Mohajeri is referring to this webpage:

http://tonalsoft.com/enc/index2.htm?iranian-segah-mode.htm

> We know that 17 is related to 34,51,….. and 51 is near
> to 53.so we may assum that there is a spectrum of edo's
> with 53 in center:
>
> ……. , 50 , 51 , 52 , 53 , 54 , 55 , 56…….

there is some truth to what you say here, in that,
by the point where there are that many divisions of
the "octave", the differences in step-size are so small
that it is not very noticeable (particularly on traditional
persian instruments, which are not accurately tuned in these
temperaments ... forgive me if i'm wrong about this, in my
ignorance of persian music and theory). i.e, the
step-sizes of the temparaments you list here are:

ET ... step-size in cents

50 ... 24
51 ... 23.52941176
52 ... 23.07692308
53 ... 22.64150943
54 ... 22.22222222
55 ... 21.81818182
56 ... 21.42857143

the difference is much more noticeable for the
lower-cardinality ETs, for example:

ET ... step-size in cents

10 ... 120
11 ... 109.0909091
12 ... 100
13 ... 92.30769231

however, it should also be noted that different ETs
approximate JI in different ways.

note that on my webpage, i point out that both 17-edo
and 24-edo give decent approximations to the cents-values
which you measured from Maestro Ebadi's performance.

this is because both of these temperaments give a
good approximation to both the pythagorean intervals
*and* the (approximate) quarter-tones.

often, 53-edo is also admitted into this company
(that is, tuning families which contain 17- and 24-edo),
because it gives a *superb* approximation to pythagorean
tuning. see, for example, the patterns of error-from-JI
under the family of tunings in which the "skhisma"
vanishes, on the colored applet graphic here:

http://tonalsoft.com/enc/index2.htm?bingo.htm&applet

in the case of Maestro Ebadi's pentachord, 53-edo
*does* give a decent approximation to the _koron_
(which Mohajeri measured at 356 cents) -- which
is 16 degrees of 53-edo, or in precise mathematics,
2^(16/53) = ~362.2641509 cents.

however, 53-edo fails to map the 2nd degree of Maestro
Ebadi's pentachord (which Mohajeri measured at 215 cents),
which falls almost exactly between 9 and 10 degrees of
53-edo.

thus, while 53-edo does usually resemble both 17-edo
and 24-edo in many ways, in this particular case it
fails to give a representation of Maestro Ebadi's
performance which is as good as either of them.

i think that what you (Mohajeri), Ozan, and Can Akkoc
are doing with interval-spectrum theory is very interesting.

-monz

Dear monzo

Thanks for your reply .

You are right about nature of persian music ,

I think that the concept of interval-spectrum is very applicable for musical cultures like my country which the base of music is melodic . harmony is not so important as melody.

my imagine of interval-Spectrum is a region of cents with 2 limits which gives the sense of a specified interval. The center of spectrum I think is better to be degrees of 12*k edo (k=2,4,6,8,…..) (as a dsfinition).

As I told u and u wrote,the koron of segah is 356 cents which is with a good approximation the 16th degrees of 54-edo (5416=355.5556 cent) .it is in an spectrum which its center is 350 (which is 7221 , 4814 , 247 ).

……

Dear monzo

As the definition in ur ency.:

An interval intermediate in size between the Major Third <http://tonalsoft.com/enc/major3rd.htm> and the Minor Third <http://tonalsoft.com/enc/minor3rd.htm> .

Neutral Thirds measure about 350 cents <http://tonalsoft.com/enc/cents.htm> (¢) and typical examples are 11/9 (347¢), 27/22 (355¢) and 16/13 (359¢).

I myself think theoretically that the best spectrum for neutral third is 350 ± 10 , (340 ……350 ……360) which is the sum of spectrum of minor third with spectrum of great dieses :

But I must test it musically to see IF THE SPECTRUM HAS THE REAL TASTE !

What is ur idea ?

……

Dear ozan ! where are u yourself?what do you think about this?

________________________________

From: monz [mailto:monz@tonalsoft.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 1:09 AM
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [tuning] eastern interval-spectrum theory (was: dear ozan : thanks a lot for reply !!)

hi Mohajeri,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Mohajeri Shahin" <shahinm@k...> wrote:

>
> <snip>
>
> It is told that the structure of persian music is pythagorean
> but if it is so?
>
> It is only one choice. Dear monzo has made a page about one
> the tetrachords in segah played by maestro ebadi ….
> It is in 17-edo.

Mohajeri is referring to this webpage:

http://tonalsoft.com/enc/index2.htm?iranian-segah-mode.htm

> We know that 17 is related to 34,51,….. and 51 is near
> to 53.so we may assum that there is a spectrum of edo's
> with 53 in center:
>
> ……. , 50 , 51 , 52 , 53 , 54 , 55 , 56…….

there is some truth to what you say here, in that,
by the point where there are that many divisions of
the "octave", the differences in step-size are so small
that it is not very noticeable (particularly on traditional
persian instruments, which are not accurately tuned in these
temperaments ... forgive me if i'm wrong about this, in my
ignorance of persian music and theory). i.e, the
step-sizes of the temparaments you list here are:

ET ... step-size in cents

50 ... 24
51 ... 23.52941176
52 ... 23.07692308
53 ... 22.64150943
54 ... 22.22222222
55 ... 21.81818182
56 ... 21.42857143

the difference is much more noticeable for the
lower-cardinality ETs, for example:

ET ... step-size in cents

10 ... 120
11 ... 109.0909091
12 ... 100
13 ... 92.30769231

however, it should also be noted that different ETs
approximate JI in different ways.

note that on my webpage, i point out that both 17-edo
and 24-edo give decent approximations to the cents-values
which you measured from Maestro Ebadi's performance.

this is because both of these temperaments give a
good approximation to both the pythagorean intervals
*and* the (approximate) quarter-tones.

often, 53-edo is also admitted into this company
(that is, tuning families which contain 17- and 24-edo),
because it gives a *superb* approximation to pythagorean
tuning. see, for example, the patterns of error-from-JI
under the family of tunings in which the "skhisma"
vanishes, on the colored applet graphic here:

http://tonalsoft.com/enc/index2.htm?bingo.htm&applet

in the case of Maestro Ebadi's pentachord, 53-edo
*does* give a decent approximation to the _koron_
(which Mohajeri measured at 356 cents) -- which
is 16 degrees of 53-edo, or in precise mathematics,
2^(16/53) = ~362.2641509 cents.

however, 53-edo fails to map the 2nd degree of Maestro
Ebadi's pentachord (which Mohajeri measured at 215 cents),
which falls almost exactly between 9 and 10 degrees of
53-edo.

thus, while 53-edo does usually resemble both 17-edo
and 24-edo in many ways, in this particular case it
fails to give a representation of Maestro Ebadi's
performance which is as good as either of them.

i think that what you (Mohajeri), Ozan, and Can Akkoc
are doing with interval-spectrum theory is very interesting.

-monz

You can configure your subscription by sending an empty email to one
of these addresses (from the address at which you receive the list):
tuning-subscribe@yahoogroups.com - join the tuning group.
tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com - leave the group.
tuning-nomail@yahoogroups.com - turn off mail from the group.
tuning-digest@yahoogroups.com - set group to send daily digests.
tuning-normal@yahoogroups.com - set group to send individual emails.
tuning-help@yahoogroups.com - receive general help information.

Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

ADVERTISEMENT
<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129jh6iog/M=273541.5630596.6691732.2248467/D=grplch/S=1705032401:HM/EXP=1104356412/A=2061551/R=0/SIG=11sr5b9n1/*http:/launch.yahoo.com/artist/videos.asp?artistID=1001301>

<http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=273541.5630596.6691732.2248467/D=grplch/S=:HM/A=2061551/rand=383657747>

________________________________

Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
/tuning/

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <mailto:tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .

Dear brother Mohajeri,

Just a week ago I had the pleasure of receiving Julien Jelaleddin Weiss in my home. He must be in Tahran as we converse, giving a Qanun recital on his own custom-tailored instrument. I was wily enough to make copies of the theoretical sketches of this Frenchman that makes use of koron symbols next to many others.

I myself am not knowledged in Persian art music, but have the feeling that ornate maqams in both our cultures have a similar theoretical basis. Below are the intervals I employ for the Saba maqam:

1/1 12/11 32/27 513/400 3/2 128/81 243/128 2/1

In all actuality, the correct scale should be something like this:

ASCENDING

1/1 11/10 32/27 32/25 3/2 8/5 243/128 2/1

DESCENDING

2/1 16/9 128/81 3/2 9/7 32/27 12/11 1/1

Notice that different ratios are still expressed with the same notes, hence the concept of `pitch-cluster`. Does this have some bearing to the topic at hand?

Cordially,
Ozan

----- Original Message -----
From: Mohajeri Shahin
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 30 Aralık 2004 Perşembe 11:34
Subject: RE: [tuning] eastern interval-spectrum theory (was: dear ozan : thanks a lot for reply !!)

Dear monzo

Thanks for your reply .

You are right about nature of persian music ,

I think that the concept of interval-spectrum is very applicable for musical cultures like my country which the base of music is melodic . harmony is not so important as melody.

my imagine of interval-Spectrum is a region of cents with 2 limits which gives the sense of a specified interval. The center of spectrum I think is better to be degrees of 12*k edo (k=2,4,6,8,…..) (as a dsfinition).

As I told u and u wrote,the koron of segah is 356 cents which is with a good approximation the 16th degrees of 54-edo (5416=355.5556 cent) .it is in an spectrum which its center is 350 (which is 7221 , 4814 , 247 ).

……

Dear monzo

As the definition in ur ency.:

An interval intermediate in size between the Major Third and the Minor Third.

Neutral Thirds measure about 350 cents (¢) and typical examples are 11/9 (347¢), 27/22 (355¢) and 16/13 (359¢).

I myself think theoretically that the best spectrum for neutral third is 350 ± 10 , (340 ……350 ……360) which is the sum of spectrum of minor third with spectrum of great dieses :

But I must test it musically to see IF THE SPECTRUM HAS THE REAL TASTE !

What is ur idea ?

……

Dear ozan ! where are u yourself?what do you think about this?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: monz [mailto:monz@tonalsoft.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 1:09 AM
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [tuning] eastern interval-spectrum theory (was: dear ozan : thanks a lot for reply !!)

hi Mohajeri,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Mohajeri Shahin" <shahinm@k...> wrote:

>
> <snip>
>
> It is told that the structure of persian music is pythagorean
> but if it is so?
>
> It is only one choice. Dear monzo has made a page about one
> the tetrachords in segah played by maestro ebadi ….
> It is in 17-edo.

Mohajeri is referring to this webpage:

http://tonalsoft.com/enc/index2.htm?iranian-segah-mode.htm

> We know that 17 is related to 34,51,….. and 51 is near
> to 53.so we may assum that there is a spectrum of edo's
> with 53 in center:
>
> ……. , 50 , 51 , 52 , 53 , 54 , 55 , 56…….

there is some truth to what you say here, in that,
by the point where there are that many divisions of
the "octave", the differences in step-size are so small
that it is not very noticeable (particularly on traditional
persian instruments, which are not accurately tuned in these
temperaments ... forgive me if i'm wrong about this, in my
ignorance of persian music and theory). i.e, the
step-sizes of the temparaments you list here are:

ET ... step-size in cents

50 ... 24
51 ... 23.52941176
52 ... 23.07692308
53 ... 22.64150943
54 ... 22.22222222
55 ... 21.81818182
56 ... 21.42857143

the difference is much more noticeable for the
lower-cardinality ETs, for example:

ET ... step-size in cents

10 ... 120
11 ... 109.0909091
12 ... 100
13 ... 92.30769231

however, it should also be noted that different ETs
approximate JI in different ways.

note that on my webpage, i point out that both 17-edo
and 24-edo give decent approximations to the cents-values
which you measured from Maestro Ebadi's performance.

this is because both of these temperaments give a
good approximation to both the pythagorean intervals
*and* the (approximate) quarter-tones.

often, 53-edo is also admitted into this company
(that is, tuning families which contain 17- and 24-edo),
because it gives a *superb* approximation to pythagorean
tuning. see, for example, the patterns of error-from-JI
under the family of tunings in which the "skhisma"
vanishes, on the colored applet graphic here:

http://tonalsoft.com/enc/index2.htm?bingo.htm&applet

in the case of Maestro Ebadi's pentachord, 53-edo
*does* give a decent approximation to the _koron_
(which Mohajeri measured at 356 cents) -- which
is 16 degrees of 53-edo, or in precise mathematics,
2^(16/53) = ~362.2641509 cents.

however, 53-edo fails to map the 2nd degree of Maestro
Ebadi's pentachord (which Mohajeri measured at 215 cents),
which falls almost exactly between 9 and 10 degrees of
53-edo.

thus, while 53-edo does usually resemble both 17-edo
and 24-edo in many ways, in this particular case it
fails to give a representation of Maestro Ebadi's
performance which is as good as either of them.

i think that what you (Mohajeri), Ozan, and Can Akkoc
are doing with interval-spectrum theory is very interesting.

-monz

You can configure your subscription by sending an empty email to one
of these addresses (from the address at which you receive the list):
tuning-subscribe@yahoogroups.com - join the tuning group.
tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com - leave the group.
tuning-nomail@yahoogroups.com - turn off mail from the group.
tuning-digest@yahoogroups.com - set group to send daily digests.
tuning-normal@yahoogroups.com - set group to send individual emails.
tuning-help@yahoogroups.com - receive general help information.

You can configure your subscription by sending an empty email to one
of these addresses (from the address at which you receive the list):
tuning-subscribe@yahoogroups.com - join the tuning group.
tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com - leave the group.
tuning-nomail@yahoogroups.com - turn off mail from the group.
tuning-digest@yahoogroups.com - set group to send daily digests.
tuning-normal@yahoogroups.com - set group to send individual emails.
tuning-help@yahoogroups.com - receive general help information.

Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
/tuning/

b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.