Saggital notation/blues

These comments are broadly related to the ongoing discussion about Saggital notation...as a longtime blues player, I am constantly bending strings and hitting notes that are somewhere on a continuum that is certainly not 12 eq (or any other temperament); but, I really don't know what ratios I'm landing on (never yet tried to analyze it)...in fact, I'm sure it changes from time to time, although I'm also sure that I bend the strings to familiar positions over the years. I don't know if anyone has ever analyzed a great string bender such as Albert/BB King, Hendrix, Roy Buchanan, or many others...and it's interesting, I've read zillions of interviews over the years with the great blues players, and not one has ever talked about what they do in any sort of scientific/analytical way, but they are surely among the most microtonal musicians on the planet. The late great Mike Bloomfield was aware of this many years ago, as he talked about the many notes available to a great string bender, but again, it was more intuirively derived than scientific. When I teach blues, I can show a student just where I want them to bend a note by feel/sound, but I don't intellectually know the ratios...and it's not an easy thing for most folks to do, in fact, I would say that playing deep blues is one of the most difficult art forms on the planet, precisely because there's so many variables...you can't tell someone how to do it for themselves, you can only point the way and hope they fill in the blanks. I've known a lot of accomplished musicians over the years who, unfortunately, turn their noses up just a bit at blues, thinking it's easy cause of the deceptive simplicity of the form (and this includes rockabilly, country, and other "simple" forms of Americana as well)..these folks never play these forms well, even thought they may think they can...cause they don't understand the inner workings, the subtle microtonal inflections tonally, as well as the microtonal rhythmic things that are going on. Jimi Hendrix was a master at bending and playing incredibly difficult rhythmic phrases...Joe Gore once transcribed one of his "Red House" solos, and talked about how terribly difficult is was to use notation for his licks...I actually don't see the point, and would go so far to say that someone who reads a Hendrix solo and then attempts to play it, will never get the exact feel...it would be much easier, if easy is the right word, just to cop the licks by ear.
Flamencos and blues players have often commented on the difficulty of notating those forms, and I agree...feeling and emulating the maestros is the best way to learn "folk" arts...anyway, interesting discussion on notation....best...Hstick

hi Neil,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Neil Haverstick" <microstick@m...>
wrote:

> These comments are broadly related to the ongoing
> discussion about Saggital notation...as a longtime blues
> player, I am constantly bending strings and hitting notes
> that are somewhere on a continuum that is certainly not 12 eq
> (or any other temperament); but, I really don't know what
> ratios I'm landing on (never yet tried to analyze it)...in fact,
> I'm sure it changes from time to time, although I'm also sure
> that I bend the strings to familiar positions over the years.
> I don't know if anyone has ever analyzed a great string bender
> such as Albert/BB King, Hendrix, Roy Buchanan, or many others...
> and it's interesting, I've read zillions of interviews over
> the years with the great blues players, and not one has ever
> talked about what they do in any sort of scientific/analytical
> way, but they are surely among the most microtonal musicians
> on the planet.

i've never done an analysis of blues *guitar* playing, but
certainly want to ... in fact, i have a rare CD of all the
straight-up blues songs recorded by Jimi Hendrix, and intend
one of these days to finally do a detailed analysis of at
least one of them.

but i did make an analysis of a *vocal* by the great blues
master Robert Johnson, which has been up on the web for
several years:

http://tonalsoft.com/enc/index2.htm?../monzo/rjohnson/drunken.htm

> <snip>
>
> I've known a lot of accomplished musicians over the years who,
> unfortunately, turn their noses up just a bit at blues, thinking
> it's easy cause of the deceptive simplicity of the form (and
> this includes rockabilly, country, and other "simple" forms
> of Americana as well)..these folks never play these forms well,
> even thought they may think they can...cause they don't
> understand the inner workings, the subtle microtonal inflections
> tonally, as well as the microtonal rhythmic things that are
> going on.

i agree, and have commented here before on how i struggled
for years to be able to perform blues with an authentic sound,
the trouble being that i was so highly trained as a classical
musician that it really took a lot of deep, deep listening
and copying by "feel" to finally realize the heavy role that
microtonality plays in getting the blues right.

> Jimi Hendrix was a master at bending and playing
> incredibly difficult rhythmic phrases...Joe Gore once transcribed
> one of his "Red House" solos, and talked about how terribly
> difficult is was to use notation for his licks...I actually
> don't see the point, and would go so far to say that someone
> who reads a Hendrix solo and then attempts to play it, will
> never get the exact feel...it would be much easier, if easy
> is the right word, just to cop the licks by ear.

well, there it is ... i mentioned Jimi earlier in this post
before i even read this part. he was just incredible.
but no-one needs me to keep saying that ... any listener
who opens his/her ears will hear it.

-monz

Hi Neil,

Thank you for such an 'accurate' and exquisite description of what has been going on in traditional Turkish music since the beginning of time.

In my ongoing research on traditional Turkish music - as practiced by legendary masters who are notorious for bending, sometimes literally breaking the "rules" - I am still struggling with the problem of determining via direct measurements "what they do in [any] sort of scientific/analytical way", as you have so clearly stated in your post.

Can Akkoc
Neil Haverstick <microstick@msn.com> wrote:
These comments are broadly related to the ongoing discussion about Saggital notation... as a longtime blues player, I am constantly bending strings and hitting notes that are somewhere on a continuum that is certainly not 12 eq (or any other temperament); but, I really don't know what ratios I'm landing on (never yet tried to analyze it)...in fact, I'm sure it changes from time to time, although I'm also sure that I bend the
strings to familiar positions over the years. I don't know if anyone has ever analyzed a great string bender such as Albert/BB King, Hendrix, Roy Buchanan, or many others...and it's interesting, I've read zillions of
interviews over the years with the great blues players, and not one has ever
talked about what they do in any sort of scientific/analytical way, but they
are surely among the most microtonal musicians on the planet. The late great
Mike Bloomfield was aware of this many years ago, as he talked about the many notes available to a great string bender, but again, it was more intuitively derived than scientific. When I teach blues, I can show a
student just where I want them to bend a note by feel/sound, but I don't intellectually know the ratios...and it's not an easy thing for most folks to do, in fact, I would say that playing deep blues is one of the most
difficult art forms on the planet, precisely because there's so many variables...you can't tell someone how to do it for themselves, you can only point the way and hope they fill in the blanks. I've known a lot of accomplished musicians over the years who, unfortunately, turn their noses up just a bit at blues, thinking it's easy cause of the deceptive simplicity of the form (and this includes rockabilly, country, and other "simple" forms of Americana as well)..these folks never play these forms well, even thought they may think they can...cause they don't understand the inner workings, the subtle microtonal inflections tonally, as well as the microtonal rhythmic things that are going on. Jimi Hendrix was a master at bending and
playing incredibly difficult rhythmic phrases...Joe Gore once transcribed
one of his "Red House" solos, and talked about how terribly difficult is was
to use notation for his licks...I actually don't see the point, and would go
so far to say that someone who reads a Hendrix solo and then attempts to
play it, will never get the exact feel...it would be much easier, if easy is
the right word, just to cop the licks by ear.
Flamencos and blues players have often commented on the difficulty of
notating those forms, and I agree...feeling and emulating the maestros is
the best way to learn "folk" arts...anyway, interesting discussion on
notation....best...Hstick

Can Akko�

can193849@yahoo.com