response to Gene Ward Smith queries. + more Logic 7 and Cameleon info

>
> Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 18:56:33 -0000
> From: "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@svpal.org>
> Subject: Re: In response to Carl's questions about Logic 7.
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Charles Lucy <lucy@h...> wrote:
>
>> My guess is that the HMT function will become a tweak toy for the
>> "blockheads" for a season or two, and eventually fall out of fashion,
>> as listeners hear the mishmash of beatings that result.
>
> What do you mean by a mishmash of beatings, and why do you think
> people would object?
>
>
>
>

By "mishmash of beatings" I mean chaotic beatings.
If used as the designers' (MHT) web site suggests, it will not necessarily be aiming only at "JI nirvana" of zero beating -(if that's your "bag"); it is also intended t be used with 12 tET,
therefore the "noisy" beating of 12tET will be compounded by other beatings from the approximations of JI.

Q. Why do I "think would people object?"
1. Because the company which produced it proposes that it be used with 12tET instruments, and adjusted by user definable amounts of "offset". (see their site for details).
2. My observations and experience lead me to believe that the most "harmonious" harmony beats at very specific rates related to the pitches sounded together.
3. People will object for many of the same reasons that they object to 12tET, and JI; (because of how it sounds).
4. Future listeners who will be exposed to many more microtunings than your average octogenarian of our era, as 12tET is no longer as ubiquitous as it was during the latter part of the twentieth century;
these future microtonal listeners will (grow) [become] more discerning (ears).

> MIDI tuning dump.
>
My understanding of the originally intended use of the MIDI tuning dump was as a "dump" to assign the pitch of all midi notes before the start of a stream of midi note and other data.
Used in this way the data transfer speed is less critical than if used to make changes during performance.

Logic 7 findings;

I have been experimenting further with Logic 7. My findings may interest some of the list lurkers as well.

The Apple supplied virtual instruments are retuned to the values of up to 12 notes per octave or MHT, and it works (as it says on the can) for EXS, Sculpture, and the E xxx synths etc.
Cameleon does not respond to the Song Tuning settings, but can be microtuned independently using .tun files.
I tried running four Apple virtual instruments (including EXS24) and Cameleon simultaneously and their tunings matched well.

More info on this at:

http://www.lucytune.com/midi_and_keyboard/pitch_bend.html

more new tunings for Logic 7 can be downloaded from

http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/24824

Charles Lucy - lucy@harmonics.com (LucyScaleDevelopments)
------------ Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -------
for information on LucyTuning go to: http://www.harmonics.com/lucy/
for LucyTuned Lullabies go to http://www.lucytune.com
http://www.lucytune.co.uk or http://www.lullabies.co.uk

Hi, Gene,

there is a big misunderstanding:
Hermode Tuning is no religion, it is a practical tool
for an automatic approachment to just intonation.
You know or should know that for every complex music it is
impossible to do this "by hand", for instance by a MIDI tuning dump.
You are praying for a musical world without beats.
The pope is praying for a human world without sin.
But both desires are fictions...

Best,
Werner Mohrlok

>-----Urspr�ngliche Nachricht-----
>Von: Charles Lucy [mailto:lucy@harmonics.com]
>Gesendet: Dienstag, 12. Oktober 2004 06:30
>An: tuning@yahoogroups.com
>Betreff: [tuning] response to Gene Ward Smith queries. + more Logic 7 and
Cameleon info
>
>> Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 18:56:33 -0000
>> From: "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@svpal.org>
>> Subject: Re: In response to Carl's questions about Logic 7.
>>
>> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Charles Lucy <lucy@h...> wrote:
>>
>>> My guess is that the HMT function will become a tweak toy for the
>>> "blockheads" for a season or two, and eventually fall out of fashion,
>>> as listeners hear the mishmash of beatings that result.
>>
>> What do you mean by a mishmash of beatings, and why do you think
>> people would object?
>>
>By "mishmash of beatings" I mean chaotic beatings.
>If used as the designers' (HMT) web site suggests, it will not
>necessarily be aiming only at "JI nirvana" of zero beating -(if that's
>your "bag"); it is also intended t be used with 12 tET,
>therefore the "noisy" beating of 12tET will be compounded by other
>beatings from the approximations of JI.

>
>Q. Why do I "think would people object?"
>1. Because the company which produced it proposes that it be used with
>12tET instruments, and adjusted by user definable amounts of "offset".
>(see their site for details).
>2. My observations and experience lead me to believe that the most
>"harmonious" harmony beats at very specific rates related to the
>pitches sounded together.
>3. People will object for many of the same reasons that they object to
>12tET, and JI; (because of how it sounds).
>4. Future listeners who will be exposed to many more microtunings than
>your average octogenarian of our era, as 12tET is no longer as
>ubiquitous as it was during the latter part of the twentieth century;
>these future microtonal listeners will (grow) [become] more discerning
>(ears).

>> MIDI tuning dump.
>>
>My understanding of the originally intended use of the MIDI tuning dump
>was as a "dump" to assign the pitch of all midi notes before the start
>of a stream of midi note and other data.
>Used in this way the data transfer speed is less critical than if used
>to make changes during performance.
>
>Logic 7 findings;
>
>I have been experimenting further with Logic 7. My findings may
>interest some of the list lurkers as well.
>
>The Apple supplied virtual instruments are retuned to the values of up
>to 12 notes per octave or HMT, and it works (as it says on the can) for
EXS, Sculpture, and the E xxx synths etc.
>Cameleon does not respond to the Song Tuning settings, but can be
>microtuned independently using .tun files.
>I tried running four Apple virtual instruments (including EXS24) and
>Cameleon simultaneously and their tunings matched well.
>
>More info on this at:
>
>http://www.lucytune.com/midi_and_keyboard/pitch_bend.html
>
>more new tunings for Logic 7 can be downloaded from

http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/24824
>
>Charles Lucy - lucy@harmonics.com (LucyScaleDevelopments)
>------------ Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -------
>for information on LucyTuning go to: http://www.harmonics.com/lucy/
for LucyTuned Lullabies go to http://www.lucytune.com
>http://www.lucytune.co.uk or http://www.lullabies.co.uk

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Charles Lucy <lucy@h...> wrote:

> 2. My observations and experience lead me to believe that the most
> "harmonious" harmony beats at very specific rates related to the
> pitches sounded together.

That sounds as if you are saying a simple beat ratio, or what I call a
"brat", would be best. This you would get from the Wilson fifth (brat
= -1), near 69-equal, but not from the Lucy-tuned fifth (brat =
-0.7311), near 88-equal, so I'm curious why you don't promote that
instead.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Werner Mohrlok" <wmohrlok@h...> wrote:
> Hi, Gene,
>
> there is a big misunderstanding:
> Hermode Tuning is no religion, it is a practical tool
> for an automatic approachment to just intonation.

I missed where I said anything different.

> You know or should know that for every complex music it is
> impossible to do this "by hand", for instance by a MIDI tuning dump.

You can do extended meantone by means of tuning dumps, so it might be
worth exploring if it would be workable to go farther. Ideally,
adapative tuning should be done globally, with the entire score, and
not in real time, so Hermode is a bit of a compromise also.

> You are praying for a musical world without beats.

One of the most confusing aspects of hanging out in the tuning
community is that people keep trying to characterize you as either a
JI person or not. In my case, that won't work.

Hi Gene,

>-----Urspr�ngliche Nachricht-----
>Von: Gene Ward Smith [mailto:gwsmith@svpal.org]
>Gesendet: Mittwoch, 13. Oktober 2004 00:12
>An: tuning@yahoogroups.com
>Betreff: [tuning] Re: response to Gene Ward Smith queries. + more Logic 7
and Cameleon info
>
>--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Werner Mohrlok" <wmohrlok@h...> wrote:
>> Hi, Gene,
>>
>> there is a big misunderstanding:
>> Hermode Tuning is no religion, it is a practical tool
>> for an automatic approachment to just intonation.
>
>I missed where I said anything different.

Oh sorry, this sentence and this complete mail was destined for Charles
Lucy.
I wanted to quarrel with him. Not with you.It seems, I was very confused
at that day.

>> You know or should know that for every complex music it is
>> impossible to do this "by hand", for instance by a MIDI tuning dump.
>
>You can do extended meantone by means of tuning dumps, so it might be
>worth exploring if it would be workable to go farther. Ideally,
>adapative tuning should be done globally, with the entire score, and
>not in real time, so Hermode is a bit of a compromise also.

Okay, but the poor fifths of Meantone don't please to every musician
and the hard deviation of many notes to the level of E.T. brings
practical problems as soon as you try to make music in common with
acoustic instruments. With most of wind instruments, for instance.
But Meantone, I agree, sounds much better than E.T. At least for
music in western tradition.
But as soon as you want to justify also the fifths to J.I., you will
get unsolvable mathematical problems. At least with non real time means.

>> You are praying for a musical world without beats.

Once again, this was said to Charles Lucy.

>One of the most confusing aspects of hanging out in the tuning
>community is that people keep trying to characterize you as either a
>JI person or not. In my case, that won't work.

JI is a "wide field" (in German: "Weites Feld") and the members of
this community move in this wide range between "funamentalists" and
mor "compromise liking persons". I belong to the last ones.

It seems that some persons assume that I am prefering a tuning
"Mismach". No, my idea is also, that the complete tuning of a score
will sound best, when the tuning of all instruments will be the same.
But...
When we developed the idea of Hermode Tuning we tried to optimize
the tuning of hardware keyboards. Sequencers, computer music and
expanders have been still in the minority. And it was our idea that
this new keyboard tuning should be a model for a dynamic tuning
of wind and string instrumentalists and for singers in well
educated orchestras, chamber music ensembles and choirs.
On the other hand this tuning should be compatible to the fix tuning
(almost E.T. or near to. E.T) of acoustic pianos, accordeons,
guitars, pipe organs and so on. As we don't like to seperate
the world in elctronic musical instruments and acoustic musical
instruments. And we wanted to create a model, controlling in real
time, for Live music.
Therefore Hermode Tuning controls always three parameters:
Tuning ratios according to positions according, or at least near to J.I.
as to the preferences of the user/ almost inaudible retuning steps/
positions as near as possible to E.T.
This means: combinations of musical instruments with
Hermode Tuning and acoustic instruments with E.T. indeed will perform
a mismach, but the result sounds better than "All instruments in E.T."
See the sound example "Charpentier" at our website. First as
"Mismach", than as "All E.T".

Now it seems that "logic 7" gives the user the possibility to
create such a "Mismach" as an image to real existing
music performances. (I say "it seems" as I am still missing
my copy - and I never got a Beta Test version).
But -if so - why not? Everyone is free to create with
Hermode Tuning a real time tuning model either of
absolute Just Intonation with 3/5/7 limit or only 3/5 limit
or a reduced degree of Just Intonation or a Mismach according
to his personally preferences or practical requirments.
And this "giving freedom", indeed, distinguishes my ideas
of these of the fundamentalists.

Best

Werner