In response to Carl's questions about Logic 7.

Sorry to be so slow to reply. I chose the digest delivery option, and I have only seen it now, Friday about 1 am.
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>
> _______________________________________________________________________> _
> _______________________________________________________________________> _
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> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2004 11:11:49 -0700
> From: Carl Lumma <ekin@lumma.org>
> Subject: Re: Logic 7 microtuning capability (How it works)
>
> Hi Charles!
>
>> You select the tuning and the "Root Key" that you wish to use, and the
>> data is then copied into the user control panel, which shows the >> change
>> from 12tET +/- to the nearest 1/10th of a cent for each note in one
>> octave.
>
> This raises three important questions:
>
> 1. Does this mean it's limited to 12-tone/octave tunings?

From my initial tests; Yes.
There also seems to be an octave stretching feature.
>
> 2. Can deviations from 12-tET be greater than 50 (or 100) cents?

As far as I understand it, you are limited to > +/- 100 cents for each of the twelve keys.

>
> 3. Do these tunings really effect all softsynths in composition?
> How does it work? Through MIDI?

It seems that it effects all the virtual instruments, so that you select the sound and effects that you wish to hear,
Midi info is sounded as the requested tuning.
It works live as you play a midi keyboard: without the slides, glitches, and delays that I have found with pitchbend systems.
The midifile in the sequencer contains no pitchbend info. as far as I can see.
Many someone with better tuning measuring gear than I have (Peterson - VS-1), can give us a report on the accuracy of the audio output.

>
>> It looks as though someone has taken lotsa time and trouble to design
>> this (pity about the only 1/10 cent resolution in the control panel).
>
> 1/10 of a cent is more than enough for me!

For me, as a Logic user, it make my life much easier, as I can now get microtuned output without the tedium of having to tweak every note of every instrument using their sample player (EXS24)

In the perfect work I would have liked it to have MIDI tuning dump resolution with any frequency assignable for any midi note.

Since the controls are in the song preferences, it seems that you are stuck with the twelve note tuning of your choice for the complete song.
Maybe for tuning changes, or more than 12 notes, you need to start another song, and then edit the audio files together after you have bounced them, as you do your audio mix.
As it is set up it seems that you cannot play both EMajor and F minor in the same song; as the tuning for the Ab/G# is set by your choice in the song preferences.

I have added some thoughts on this and more details at:

http://www.lucytune.com/midi_and_keyboard/pitch_bend.html

The HMT system seems to be a "fudge" which analyses notes in a chord and then retunes in repeated attempts to produce (JI-type) integer ratio "pure?" intervals, i.e. naively aiming at zero beating.
Maybe they could extend their application to aim for tunings other than JI?

Their site is amazing.
It claims that their system can work well, and to adjustable levels of change, with other instruments playing in 12tET.

see http://www.hermode.de/

Their perspective seems to be pretty backward-looking.

They appear to be aiming to reproduce baroque tuning;
rather than exploring new possibilities and offering opportunities for adventurous musical experimentation.

My guess is that the HMT function will become a tweak toy for the "blockheads" for a season or two, and eventually fall out of fashion, as listeners hear the mishmash of beatings that result.

It might serve well to open new ears to the importance of appropriate beating in tunings; which would be a move in the right direction.

>
>> After all Logic has now become, the most important platform for
>> professional, film, and commercial music production.
>
> That's true.

The microtuning capabilities of Logic 7 may be fairly primitive at present, but Apple seem to be making good progress with their recent multimedia (music and video) applications.

Logic 7 is a good (although slightly muddled) start; at least someone in the Logic team has heard of microtuning and is beginning to understand it.

Let's hope later versions of Logic will provide even better microtuning capabilities.

>
> -Carl
>

Charles Lucy - lucy@harmonics.com (LucyScaleDevelopments)
------------ Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -------
for information on LucyTuning go to: http://www.harmonics.com/lucy/
for LucyTuned Lullabies go to http://www.lucytune.com
http://www.lucytune.co.uk or http://www.lullabies.co.uk

>Sorry to be so slow to reply.

No problem. Take as long as you need.

>>> You select the tuning and the "Root Key" that you wish to use,
>>> and the data is then copied into the user control panel, which
>>> shows the change from 12tET +/- to the nearest 1/10th of a
>>> cent for each note in one octave.
>>
>> This raises three important questions:
>>
>> 1. Does this mean it's limited to 12-tone/octave tunings?
>
>From my initial tests; Yes.
>There also seems to be an octave stretching feature.

Too bad, but much better than nothing!

>> 2. Can deviations from 12-tET be greater than 50 (or 100) cents?
>
>As far as I understand it, you are limited to > +/- 100 cents for
>each of the twelve keys.

Again not ideal, but it could be worse.

>> 3. Do these tunings really effect all softsynths in composition?
>> How does it work? Through MIDI?
>
>It seems that it effects all the virtual instruments, so that you
>select the sound and effects that you wish to hear,
>Midi info is sounded as the requested tuning.
>It works live as you play a midi keyboard: without the slides,
>glitches, and delays that I have found with pitchbend systems.
>The midifile in the sequencer contains no pitchbend info. as far
>as I can see.

Interesting. . . I'd love to know how this works.

>Since the controls are in the song preferences, it seems that you are
>stuck with the twelve note tuning of your choice for the complete song.
>Maybe for tuning changes, or more than 12 notes, you need to start
>another song, and then edit the audio files together after you have
>bounced them, as you do your audio mix.

Another "gotcha", fortunately with a workaround.

>The HMT system seems to be a "fudge" which analyses notes in a chord
>and then retunes in repeated attempts to produce (JI-type) integer
>ratio "pure?" intervals, i.e. naively aiming at zero beating.
>Maybe they could extend their application to aim for tunings other than
> JI?
>
>Their site is amazing.
>It claims that their system can work well, and to adjustable levels of
>change, with other instruments playing in 12tET.
>
>see http://www.hermode.de/

Yes, their site and their system are both amazing.

>Their perspective seems to be pretty backward-looking.

Your opinion.

>They appear to be aiming to reproduce baroque tuning; rather
>than exploring new possibilities and offering opportunities for
>adventurous musical experimentation.

I don't know how "baroque" 5-limit adaptive JI is. Certainly
HMT is enabling the first glitch-free realtime keyboard instruments
that manage comma shift in a reasonable way. Meanwhile, 12-notes
of LucyTuning is decidedly pre-baroque.

>My guess is that the HMT function will become a tweak toy for the
>"blockheads" for a season or two, and eventually fall out of fashion,
>as listeners hear the mishmash of beatings that result.

It doesn't seem to be a problem playing guitar with piano, ensemble
with piano, etc. etc.

>Let's hope later versions of Logic will provide even better microtuning
>capabilities.

Indeed.

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Charles Lucy <lucy@h...> wrote:

> My guess is that the HMT function will become a tweak toy for the
> "blockheads" for a season or two, and eventually fall out of fashion,
> as listeners hear the mishmash of beatings that result.

What do you mean by a mishmash of beatings, and why do you think
people would object?