Attempting to infer the Vedic septet

Hello ALL, the most commonly used notes when chanting, for example, the meter called Anushtubh, are three: Bb C Db [but presumably in JI.]

Let me reproduce here the commonly accepted 22 shruti-s:

1/1 S/C
256/243 r/Db
16/15
10/9
9/8 R/D
32/27 g/Eb
6/5
5/4
81/64 G/E
4/3 m/F
27/20
45/32
729/512 M/F#
3/2 P/G
128/81 d/Ab
8/5
5/3
27/16 D/A
16/9 n/Bb
9/5
15/8
243/128 N/B
(2/1) S'/C'

Using the three chanting notes Bb C Db, can we try to make any educated inferences about the Vedic septet? I am not using the word 'octave' because we know we had a maximum of seven notes then. Octave doubling, in my opinion, must have come even later. In fact it is recognized that the Vedic chanting started with one note (archika gayana), followed by two-note chanting (gatha gayana), and then the three-note chanting (samika gayana). [Pronounced, respectively, aarchika gaayana, gaathaa gaayana, and saamika gaayana.]

To repeat: Using the three chanting notes Bb C Db, can we try to make any educated inferences about the Vedic septet?

Thanks and regards,
Haresh.

Sorry, can you define again, if you already have, what the 'Vedic septet' is?

-A.

On Wednesday 06 October 2004 08:47 pm, Haresh BAKSHI wrote:
> Hello ALL, the most commonly used notes when chanting, for example, the
> meter called Anushtubh, are three: Bb C Db [but presumably in JI.]
>
> Let me reproduce here the commonly accepted 22 shruti-s:
>
> 1/1 S/C
> 256/243 r/Db
> 16/15
> 10/9
> 9/8 R/D
> 32/27 g/Eb
> 6/5
> 5/4
> 81/64 G/E
> 4/3 m/F
> 27/20
> 45/32
> 729/512 M/F#
> 3/2 P/G
> 128/81 d/Ab
> 8/5
> 5/3
> 27/16 D/A
> 16/9 n/Bb
> 9/5
> 15/8
> 243/128 N/B
> (2/1) S'/C'
>
> Using the three chanting notes Bb C Db, can we try to make any educated
> inferences about the Vedic septet? I am not using the word 'octave' because
> we know we had a maximum of seven notes then. Octave doubling, in my
> opinion, must have come even later. In fact it is recognized that the Vedic
> chanting started with one note (archika gayana), followed by two-note
> chanting (gatha gayana), and then the three-note chanting (samika gayana).
> [Pronounced, respectively, aarchika gaayana, gaathaa gaayana, and saamika
> gaayana.]
>
> To repeat: Using the three chanting notes Bb C Db, can we try to make any
> educated inferences about the Vedic septet?
>
> Thanks and regards,
> Haresh.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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--
Aaron Krister Johnson
http://www.akjmusic.com
http://www.dividebypi.com

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron K. Johnson" <akjmicro@c...> wrote:
>
> Sorry, can you define again, if you already have, what the 'Vedic septet' is?
> -A. >>>>

Hello Aaron, Let us call it the Vedic octave. We do not have much information about it. So we want to speculate about it.

If we know three intervals, can we speculate about the kind of octave they can be a part of ? Can we try to infer the intervals for all the notes of an octave, based on our information about only three notes?

The three intervals are:
(i) 1/1
(ii) 256/243 OR 16/15 OR 10/9
(iii) 16/9 OR 9/5 OR 15/8

The three notes approximate to Bb, C, and Db. They are consecutive:
Bb3, C4 and Db4, for example.

Doe it help? Do you want me to try once more?

Thanks and regards,
Haresh.

>
>
> On Wednesday 06 October 2004 08:47 pm, Haresh BAKSHI wrote:
> > Hello ALL, the most commonly used notes when chanting, for example, the
> > meter called Anushtubh, are three: Bb C Db [but presumably in JI.]
> >
> > Let me reproduce here the commonly accepted 22 shruti-s:
> >
> > 1/1 S/C
> > 256/243 r/Db
> > 16/15
> > 10/9
> > 9/8 R/D
> > 32/27 g/Eb
> > 6/5
> > 5/4
> > 81/64 G/E
> > 4/3 m/F
> > 27/20
> > 45/32
> > 729/512 M/F#
> > 3/2 P/G
> > 128/81 d/Ab
> > 8/5
> > 5/3
> > 27/16 D/A
> > 16/9 n/Bb
> > 9/5
> > 15/8
> > 243/128 N/B
> > (2/1) S'/C'
> >
> > Using the three chanting notes Bb C Db, can we try to make any educated
> > inferences about the Vedic septet? I am not using the word 'octave' because
> > we know we had a maximum of seven notes then. Octave doubling, in my
> > opinion, must have come even later. In fact it is recognized that the Vedic
> > chanting started with one note (archika gayana), followed by two-note
> > chanting (gatha gayana), and then the three-note chanting (samika gayana).
> > [Pronounced, respectively, aarchika gaayana, gaathaa gaayana, and saamika
> > gaayana.]
> >
> > To repeat: Using the three chanting notes Bb C Db, can we try to make any
> > educated inferences about the Vedic septet?
> >
> > Thanks and regards,
> > Haresh.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > You can configure your subscription by sending an empty email to one
> > of these addresses (from the address at which you receive the list):
> > tuning-subscribe@yahoogroups.com - join the tuning group.
> > tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com - leave the group.
> > tuning-nomail@yahoogroups.com - turn off mail from the group.
> > tuning-digest@yahoogroups.com - set group to send daily digests.
> > tuning-normal@yahoogroups.com - set group to send individual emails.
> > tuning-help@yahoogroups.com - receive general help information.
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Aaron Krister Johnson
> http://www.akjmusic.com
> http://www.dividebypi.com

Haresh BAKSHI wrote:

> If we know three intervals, can we speculate about the kind of octave they can be a part of ? Can we try to infer the intervals for all the notes of an octave, based on our information about only three notes?
> > The three intervals are:
> (i) 1/1 > (ii) 256/243 OR 16/15 OR 10/9
> (iii) 16/9 OR 9/5 OR 15/8

Let me offer three points:

1. speculation may be allowed to go really wild, since music theory came under a persian/arabic influence in the times of the moguls. If I understand correctly, the older practice was all but abandoned, at least among prefossional musicians at the courts.

2. vedic music being sung and not tuned to multi-string instruments (which offer the opportunity to tune by fifths) I would rule out 256/243, but I'd certainly consider 9/8 for the second degree.

3. The next tones to be added are a fourth, and then some second below the tonic (I'd expect one of the major ones). BTW, do you have sources that tell you that the three tone stage had its notes consecutive in heptatonic seconds? Because

4. I would have added 4/3 as the second or third note; then (or after) a tone inbetween. This leaves the path open for music with recitation tones within the frame of a fourth plus passing notes (the path I would choose) or a regular fifth based pentatonic.

klaus