Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning Arab lute frettings: updated webpage

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:

> it took me 6 years to finally getting around
> to making a real webpage out of this, but i've
> done it.
>
> http://tonalsoft.com/monzo/arablute/arablute.htm

and then i got totally carried away and stayed up
all night working on it some more.

so if you took a look yesterday and liked it,
you should go back again now and "refresh/reload".

i included staff-notation illustrations of all three
frettings (ancient, Zalzal, and Mahmoud/Abdulqadir).
the ancient and M/A use only Pythagorean tuning,
but Zalzal's frets used ratios of 7 and 11, for
which i used both JI and 72edo HEWM notation.

if anyone would like to create some graphics using
sagittal, i would be happy to put them on the webpage.

-monz

🔗Dante Rosati <dante@interport.net>

great job Monz! How much coffee did that take?

Dante

> -----Original Message-----
> From: monz [mailto:monz@attglobal.net]
> Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2004 3:05 PM
> To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [tuning] Re: Arab lute frettings: updated webpage
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
>
> > it took me 6 years to finally getting around
> > to making a real webpage out of this, but i've
> > done it.
> >
> > http://tonalsoft.com/monzo/arablute/arablute.htm
>
>
>
> and then i got totally carried away and stayed up
> all night working on it some more.
>
> so if you took a look yesterday and liked it,
> you should go back again now and "refresh/reload".
>
> i included staff-notation illustrations of all three
> frettings (ancient, Zalzal, and Mahmoud/Abdulqadir).
> the ancient and M/A use only Pythagorean tuning,
> but Zalzal's frets used ratios of 7 and 11, for
> which i used both JI and 72edo HEWM notation.
>
> if anyone would like to create some graphics using
> sagittal, i would be happy to put them on the webpage.
>
>
>
> -monz
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> You can configure your subscription by sending an empty email to one
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🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@anaphoria.com>

This is not true as even on recent poster from that part of the world
mentioned.
this is restricted to the pop music of the Mediterranean

Despite the fact that later theorists revised the placement of these frets
to render them within a Pythagorean framework, their
acoustic gestalts have persisted in music of the "middle-east",
resulting eventually in the official adoption by the Arab world of
24edo ("quarter-tones") in the early 1900s.

Dante Rosati wrote:

> great job Monz! How much coffee did that take?
>
> Dante
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: monz [mailto:monz@attglobal.net]
> > Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2004 3:05 PM
> > To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [tuning] Re: Arab lute frettings: updated webpage
> >
> >
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
> >
> > > it took me 6 years to finally getting around
> > > to making a real webpage out of this, but i've
> > > done it.
> > >
> > > http://tonalsoft.com/monzo/arablute/arablute.htm
> >
> >
> >
> > and then i got totally carried away and stayed up
> > all night working on it some more.
> >
> > so if you took a look yesterday and liked it,
> > you should go back again now and "refresh/reload".
> >
> > i included staff-notation illustrations of all three
> > frettings (ancient, Zalzal, and Mahmoud/Abdulqadir).
> > the ancient and M/A use only Pythagorean tuning,
> > but Zalzal's frets used ratios of 7 and 11, for
> > which i used both JI and 72edo HEWM notation.
> >
> > if anyone would like to create some graphics using
> > sagittal, i would be happy to put them on the webpage.
> >
> >
> >
> > -monz
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > You can configure your subscription by sending an empty email to one
> > of these addresses (from the address at which you receive the list):
> > tuning-subscribe@yahoogroups.com - join the tuning group.
> > tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com - leave the group.
> > tuning-nomail@yahoogroups.com - turn off mail from the group.
> > tuning-digest@yahoogroups.com - set group to send daily digests.
> > tuning-normal@yahoogroups.com - set group to send individual emails.
> > tuning-help@yahoogroups.com - receive general help information.
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> You can configure your subscription by sending an empty email to one
> of these addresses (from the address at which you receive the list):
> tuning-subscribe@yahoogroups.com - join the tuning group.
> tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com - leave the group.
> tuning-nomail@yahoogroups.com - turn off mail from the group.
> tuning-digest@yahoogroups.com - set group to send daily digests.
> tuning-normal@yahoogroups.com - set group to send individual emails.
> tuning-help@yahoogroups.com - receive general help information.
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@anaphoria.com>

The Arab lute's open strings and ancient fretting were entirely Pythagorean
(that is, 3-limit), derived most likely from
Sumerian/Babylonian, Indian, and Greek precedents.

this too is untrue . North indian music comes from influence from here not
the other way around

Dante Rosati wrote:

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@anaphoria.com>

🔗monz <monz@attglobal.net>

hi Kraig,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
>
> > it took me 6 years to finally getting around
> > to making a real webpage out of this, but i've
> > done it.
> >
> > http://tonalsoft.com/monzo/arablute/arablute.htm
>
>> "Despite the fact that later theorists revised the placement
>> of these frets to render them within a Pythagorean framework,
>> their acoustic gestalts have persisted in music of the
>> "middle-east", resulting eventually in the official adoption
>> by the Arab world of 24edo ("quarter-tones") in the early 1900s."
>
> This is not true as even on recent poster from that part
> of the world mentioned. this is restricted to the pop music
> of the Mediterranean
>

good of you to point that out. my main concern while
putting this page together was the graphs and music notations.
i threw the text in quickly just to fill it out, and
will continue to work on it as i have time.

that paragraph in particular was something i should have
edited. i've changed it to this:

>> Despite the fact that later theorists revised the placement
>> of these frets to render them within a Pythagorean framework,
>> their acoustic gestalts have persisted in music of the
>> "middle-east". This resulted eventually in the controversy
>> over the official adoption by the countries of the Arab
>> world of 24edo ("quarter-tones") in the mid-1900s, since
>> 24edo gives good approximations to all of the 11-limit
>> ratios posited by Zalzal.

-monz

🔗monz <monz@attglobal.net>

hi Kraig,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:

> The Arab lute's open strings and ancient fretting were
> entirely Pythagorean (that is, 3-limit), derived most likely
> from Sumerian/Babylonian, Indian, and Greek precedents.
>
> this too is untrue . North indian music comes from
> influence from here not the other way around
>
> > > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > http://tonalsoft.com/monzo/arablute/arablute.htm

you're thinking of a later time in Indian history.

north Indian culture was indeed part of the Muslim world
after the Moghul conquest, but the south Indian (Dravidian)
culture is much older and was already highly developed
by that time.

the point is that the Sumerian/Babylonian, (south) Indian,
and Greek music-theories are all much older than the Arab,
but they all have much in common.

-monz

🔗monz <monz@attglobal.net>

hi Kraig,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:

> The most important and significant practice in the use
> of frets is that they are almost universally moveable.
> this is so the musician can adjust the fretting to
> accommodate the tuning of particular scales. Obviously
> one does not need movable frets for tempered scales.

thanks *very* much for that !!

i certainly should have emphasized that, and was wrong
to leave it out. that's a point that's so important that
i've put it right at the beginning of the page now.

-monz

🔗Dave Keenan <d.keenan@bigpond.net.au>

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:
>
> > The most important and significant practice in the use
> > of frets is that they are almost universally moveable.
> > this is so the musician can adjust the fretting to
> > accommodate the tuning of particular scales. Obviously
> > one does not need movable frets for tempered scales.

Not so obvious. For example, if you are using meantone and do not
want more than 12 frets, as they would be too close together, then
you might want some frets to be movable to let you change a G# to an
Ab etc. for playing in different keys.

🔗George D. Secor <gdsecor@yahoo.com>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
>
> > it took me 6 years to finally getting around
> > to making a real webpage out of this, but i've
> > done it.
> >
> > http://tonalsoft.com/monzo/arablute/arablute.htm
>
> and then i got totally carried away and stayed up
> all night working on it some more.
>
> so if you took a look yesterday and liked it,
> you should go back again now and "refresh/reload".
>
> i included staff-notation illustrations of all three
> frettings (ancient, Zalzal, and Mahmoud/Abdulqadir).
> the ancient and M/A use only Pythagorean tuning,
> but Zalzal's frets used ratios of 7 and 11, for
> which i used both JI and 72edo HEWM notation.
>
> if anyone would like to create some graphics using
> sagittal, i would be happy to put them on the webpage.

Dave and I have already done our part by designing the symbols and
providing a scalable font for these. Bitmap versions of the Sagittal
symbols are also available upon request (for staff lines either 6 or
8 pixels apart).

So it looks like "anyone" is *you*, Monz. I would think that this
would be a good practice exercise for you to gain some familiarity
with how the notation works, especially since you've indicated your
intention to include Sagittal in a future release of the Tonalsoft
software.

--George

🔗monz <monz@attglobal.net>

hi Hermes ... um, i mean, George,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "George D. Secor" <gdsecor@y...> wrote:

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
> >
> > > http://tonalsoft.com/monzo/arablute/arablute.htm
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > i included staff-notation illustrations of all three
> > frettings (ancient, Zalzal, and Mahmoud/Abdulqadir).
> > the ancient and M/A use only Pythagorean tuning,
> > but Zalzal's frets used ratios of 7 and 11, for
> > which i used both JI and 72edo HEWM notation.
> >
> > if anyone would like to create some graphics using
> > sagittal, i would be happy to put them on the webpage.
>
> Dave and I have already done our part by designing the
> symbols and providing a scalable font for these. Bitmap
> versions of the Sagittal symbols are also available upon
> request (for staff lines either 6 or 8 pixels apart).
>
> So it looks like "anyone" is *you*, Monz.

darn, you called my bluff!

> I would think that this would be a good practice exercise
> for you to gain some familiarity with how the notation
> works, especially since you've indicated your intention
> to include Sagittal in a future release of the Tonalsoft
> software.
>
> --George

yes, actually it was my intention all along to try out
these particular examples as a "practice exercise" in
using Sagittal.

i just didn't do it right then and there because i was
up all night working on the webpage, and i have not yet
tried using the sagittal font in Finale, which is the
program i have that i presume would use it.

but if there *is* anyone else out there who's already
tried using the sagittal font who's willing to make these
examples for me (perhaps as their own "practice exercise"
in Sagittal), i'd be glad to simply study the final
result, since i know very well how Pythagorean and HEWM
work on these examples and comparing them to Sagittal
would teach me a lot. :)

-monz

🔗George D. Secor <gdsecor@yahoo.com>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
> hi Hermes ... um, i mean, George,
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "George D. Secor" <gdsecor@y...>
wrote:
>
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
> > > <snip>
> > >
> > > i included staff-notation illustrations of all three
> > > frettings (ancient, Zalzal, and Mahmoud/Abdulqadir).
> > > the ancient and M/A use only Pythagorean tuning,
> > > but Zalzal's frets used ratios of 7 and 11, for
> > > which i used both JI and 72edo HEWM notation.
> > >
> > > if anyone would like to create some graphics using
> > > sagittal, i would be happy to put them on the webpage.
> >
> > Dave and I have already done our part by designing the
> > symbols and providing a scalable font for these. Bitmap
> > versions of the Sagittal symbols are also available upon
> > request (for staff lines either 6 or 8 pixels apart).
> >
> > So it looks like "anyone" is *you*, Monz.
>
> darn, you called my bluff! ...
> but if there *is* anyone else out there who's already
> tried using the sagittal font who's willing to make these
> examples for me (perhaps as their own "practice exercise"
> in Sagittal), i'd be glad to simply study the final
> result, since i know very well how Pythagorean and HEWM
> work on these examples and comparing them to Sagittal
> would teach me a lot. :)

I'll have to clean up my ratio vector calculator spreadsheet and make
it available to everyone. There's a good one in Scala (shift+alt+V),
but it does only medium-precision (athenian-level) Sagittal JI with 1
or 2 spellings, whereas alternate versions of my spreadsheet also
give 47 and 58-step high-precision notation in all (2 or 3) possible
spellings (up to a double apotome of alteration). I need to combine
these with the 21-step medium-precision notation (and also possibly
low-precision JI via a 130-ET mapping) into a single spreadsheet, so
you can compare these with one another.

In my spreadsheet everything is in the mixed-symbol version of
Sagittal, whereas Scala allows you to see either pure or mixed,
depending on whether you have "set sagi pure" (the default) or "set
sagi mixed", and it also allows you to compare that with the JI2
notation.

But as for the other half of the "practice exercise" (that of
producing a graphic containing a musical staff with the actual
symbols), that's something you'll have to do yourself. (Or maybe you
could get someone to create some software that would do it for
you. ;-)

--George