How are the notes of the diatonic scale named in Greek?

modern and ancient?

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Keenan" <d.keenan@b...> wrote:
> modern and ancient?

the ancient Greek names did not change according to
genus, other than a generic qualifier (enharmonic,
chromatic, diatonic) or a further shade qualifier
(ditonic, tonic, tense, relaxed, hemiolic, even).

the notes themselves were named according to *function*,
something like the way our Roman Numerals work in
harmonic analysis.

the tetrachords above the middle note _mese_ had notes
named, in descending order:

_nete_ (furthest)
_paranete_ (next-to-furthest)
_trite_ (3rd)

and in the "greater" (disjunct) system there was also
a _paramese_ (next-to-_mese_).

then there was _mese_.

the tetrachords below _mese_ had notes named:

_lichanos_ (forefinger)
_parhypate_ (next-to-nearest)
_hypate_ (nearest)

then there was also _proslambanomenos_ (added-tone)
at the bottom.

you can see a schematic of the entire "Perfect
Immutable System" here:

file://localhost/D:/tonalsoft.com/enc/pis.htm

the exact notes contained within a scale would
depend on whether it was the conjunct or disjunt
system, and which mode ("8ve"-species) was in question.

i think it's worth noting that these Greek names
exactly parallel the names found on the oldest
extant text on tuning (CBS 10996), which is
Babylonian c.1600 BC. i talked about it a little
here:

/tuning/topicId_11624.html#11624

and i believe that it is not only a tuning text but
actually a score of a lyre etude, of which i've made
a MIDI-file which is here:

http://tonalsoft.com/monzo/babylonian/cbs10996.mid

and which is also used as the "theme song" for this page:

http://www.rakkav.com/homeworlds/foundations/pages/arrangements/ancient.
htm

some of the history of CBS 10996 and the literature
about it is here:

http://www.rakkav.com/kdhinc/pages/sacred.htm

(i'll have to let that webmaster know about my new links)

i don't know anything about modern Greek theory.

-monz

I don't know if the names of the notes in ancient greek can be read well in English , but here goes :
ancient:
E : niti
D : paraniti
C : triti(third)
B : paramesi
A : mesi (middle)
G : lihanos
F : paripati
E : ipati
The modern are the usual : Do,re,mi,fa,sol,la,si,do

On Jul 5, 2004, at 1:41 PM, Dave Keenan wrote:

> modern and ancient?
>
>
>
>
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--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Keenan" <d.keenan@b...> wrote:
> > modern and ancient?
>
>
> the ancient Greek names did not change according to
> genus, other than a generic qualifier (enharmonic,
> chromatic, diatonic) or a further shade qualifier
> (ditonic, tonic, tense, relaxed, hemiolic, even).
>
> the notes themselves were named according to *function*,
> something like the way our Roman Numerals work in
> harmonic analysis.
>
>
> the tetrachords above the middle note _mese_ had notes
> named, in descending order:
>
> _nete_ (furthest)
> _paranete_ (next-to-furthest)
> _trite_ (3rd)
>
> and in the "greater" (disjunct) system there was also
> a _paramese_ (next-to-_mese_).
>
> then there was _mese_.
>
> the tetrachords below _mese_ had notes named:
>
> _lichanos_ (forefinger)
> _parhypate_ (next-to-nearest)
> _hypate_ (nearest)
>
> then there was also _proslambanomenos_ (added-tone)
> at the bottom.

however, the ancient Greeks also had two different
kinds of notation, one "vocal" and one "instrumental",
which used single-character signs to represent pitches.

the "vocal" notation used letters of the Greek alphabet.

the "instrumental" notation is probably much older,
because some of its symbols resemble Greek letters
but others resemble the older Phoenician letters.

the basic symbols designated the diatonic genus,
and were generally rotated counterclockwise 90 degrees
for chromatic, and 180 degrees for enharmonic.

this is a good brief exposition of the subject
available online (requires Adobe Acrobat Reader):

www.tlg.uci.edu/files/musical.brief.pdf

-monz

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Alexandros Papadopoulos
<Alexmoog@o...> wrote:
> I don't know if the names of the notes in ancient greek can be
read
> well in English , but here goes :
> ancient:
> E : niti
> D : paraniti
> C : triti(third)
> B : paramesi
> A : mesi (middle)
> G : lihanos
> F : paripati
> E : ipati
> The modern are the usual : Do,re,mi,fa,sol,la,si,do

Thanks very much for that Alexandros and Monz.

I guess what I really want to know is, if an english music text or
paper that uses the note names ABCDEFG, or even the title of a piece
of music such as "... in C minor" is translated to Greek, how are
the Roman letters ABCDEFG translated? Same question for Hebrew.

Are they translated to
la si do re mi fa sol, or
alpha beta chi delta epsilon phi gamma (phonetic transliteration),
or
alpha beta gamma delta epsilon zeta eta (greek alphabetic order)?

The ABCD etc. are translated La Si Do Re etc. in Greek .
A piece "... in C minor" would be ".. in Do elasona(minor) ".
The greek alphabet is never used in notation , except in Carlos scales maybe!
On Jul 7, 2004, at 1:56 PM, Dave Keenan wrote:

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Alexandros Papadopoulos
> <Alexmoog@o...> wrote:
>> I don't know if the names of the notes in ancient greek can be
> read
>> well in English , but here goes :
>> ancient:
>> E : niti
>> D : paraniti
>> C : triti(third)
>> B : paramesi
>> A : mesi (middle)
>> G : lihanos
>> F : paripati
>> E : ipati
>> The modern are the usual : Do,re,mi,fa,sol,la,si,do
>
> Thanks very much for that Alexandros and Monz.
>
> I guess what I really want to know is, if an english music text or
> paper that uses the note names ABCDEFG, or even the title of a piece
> of music such as "... in C minor" is translated to Greek, how are
> the Roman letters ABCDEFG translated? Same question for Hebrew.
>
> Are they translated to
> la si do re mi fa sol, or
> alpha beta chi delta epsilon phi gamma (phonetic transliteration),
> or
> alpha beta gamma delta epsilon zeta eta (greek alphabetic order)?
>
>
>
>
>
> You can configure your subscription by sending an empty email to one
> of these addresses (from the address at which you receive the list):
> tuning-subscribe@yahoogroups.com - join the tuning group.
> tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com - leave the group.
> tuning-nomail@yahoogroups.com - turn off mail from the group.
> tuning-digest@yahoogroups.com - set group to send daily digests.
> tuning-normal@yahoogroups.com - set group to send individual emails.
> tuning-help@yahoogroups.com - receive general help information.
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Alexandros Papadopoulos
<Alexmoog@o...> wrote:
> The ABCD etc. are translated La Si Do Re etc. in Greek .
> A piece "... in C minor" would be ".. in Do elasona(minor) ".
> The greek alphabet is never used in notation , except in Carlos
scales
> maybe!

Thanks for that. This means we're free to use the usual Greek
transliteration of the Roman A to G, without risk of clashing with
anything actually used in Greek.

But I'm still wondering about the Hebrew.

Another question Alexandros,

What is (the Roman transliteration of) the Greek word or words with
the same meaning as "capital" or "uppercase" as in "capital letters".

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Keenan" <d.keenan@b...> wrote:

> What is (the Roman transliteration of) the Greek word or words with
> the same meaning as "capital" or "uppercase" as in "capital letters".

My Greek informant tells me it is "kefalaio".

Graham

Dave Keenan <d.keenan@bigpond.net.au> ����:

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Alexandros Papadopoulos
> <Alexmoog@o...> wrote:
> > The ABCD etc. are translated La Si Do Re etc. in Greek .
> > A piece "... in C minor" would be ".. in Do elasona(minor) ".
> > The greek alphabet is never used in notation , except in Carlos
> scales
> > maybe!
>
> Thanks for that. This means we're free to use the usual Greek
> transliteration of the Roman A to G, without risk of clashing with
> anything actually used in Greek.
>
> But I'm still wondering about the Hebrew.
>
> Another question Alexandros,
>
> What is (the Roman transliteration of) the Greek word or words
with
> the same meaning as "capital" or "uppercase" as in "capital
letters".
>
Sorry about the delay , I am on vacation and I only found a computer
today!
Yes ,except ABCDEFG , no other letters are used in Greek music
notation.
I don't know if I understand the word tranliteration correctly.
"capital" or "uppercase" would be "kefaleos" in Greek.
"capital letters" will be "kefalaia grammatta"

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, <Alexmoog@o...> wrote:
> I don't know if I understand the word tranliteration correctly.
> "capital" or "uppercase" would be "kefaleos" in Greek.
> "capital letters" will be "kefalaia grammatta"

Yes. That's what I wanted to know. Thanks Alexandros.