my attempt at a theory of chords

Hello everyone,

I have finally got the first draft written on what I hope is a
fundamental theory of chords from harmonic principles. Perhaps
some of you could review it and give some critical feedback?

http://home.austin.rr.com/jmjensen/theoryOfChords.html

thanks!
--Jeff

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "jjensen142000" <jjensen14@h...> wrote:
>
>
> Hello everyone,
>
> I have finally got the first draft written on what I hope is a
> fundamental theory of chords from harmonic principles. Perhaps
> some of you could review it and give some critical feedback?
>
> http://home.austin.rr.com/jmjensen/theoryOfChords.html

According to this, 1-3/2-9/5, 1-4/3-7/4 and 1-4/3-9/5 are all more
harmonious than 1-5/4-3/2, which suggests to me something is wrong
either with your definition or your computations.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "jjensen142000" <jjensen14@h...>
wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hello everyone,
> >
> > I have finally got the first draft written on what I hope is a
> > fundamental theory of chords from harmonic principles. Perhaps
> > some of you could review it and give some critical feedback?
> >
> > http://home.austin.rr.com/jmjensen/theoryOfChords.html
>
> According to this, 1-3/2-9/5, 1-4/3-7/4 and 1-4/3-9/5 are all more
> harmonious than 1-5/4-3/2, which suggests to me something is wrong
> either with your definition or your computations.

Hi Gene

Yes, it is troublesome to me too that some of these dissonance
values aren't what one would expect. The calculations are just very
sensitive to how you weight the harmonics; I took the first 6 and
gave them equal amplitude because I had to chose something and
nothing else seemed more natural. I had a lot of problems earlier,
and I thoughly check the calculations, so I think they are right.

I remember a discussion about this maybe a couple years ago here,
regarding problems like this with Plomp/Sethares dissonance, and
that harmonic entropy was supposed to fix it. I would be very
suprised though if any algorithm didn't act a little bit funny on
this many chords.

--Jeff

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "jjensen142000" <jjensen14@h...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...>
wrote:
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "jjensen142000" <jjensen14@h...>
> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Hello everyone,
> > >
> > > I have finally got the first draft written on what I hope is a
> > > fundamental theory of chords from harmonic principles. Perhaps
> > > some of you could review it and give some critical feedback?
> > >
> > > http://home.austin.rr.com/jmjensen/theoryOfChords.html
> >
> > According to this, 1-3/2-9/5, 1-4/3-7/4 and 1-4/3-9/5 are all more
> > harmonious than 1-5/4-3/2, which suggests to me something is wrong
> > either with your definition or your computations.
>
> Hi Gene
>
> Yes, it is troublesome to me too that some of these dissonance
> values aren't what one would expect. The calculations are just
very
> sensitive to how you weight the harmonics; I took the first 6 and
> gave them equal amplitude because I had to chose something and
> nothing else seemed more natural. I had a lot of problems earlier,
> and I thoughly check the calculations, so I think they are right.
>
> I remember a discussion about this maybe a couple years ago here,
> regarding problems like this with Plomp/Sethares dissonance,

I'm not here.

Plomp/Sethares dissonance doesn't have problems like this. When I
return, I'll be happy to look at what you've done -- there's probably
a simple fix that'll remedy it.

I'm not here.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus" <paul@s...> wrote:

> > Plomp/Sethares dissonance doesn't have problems like this. When I
> return, I'll be happy to look at what you've done -- there's
probably
> a simple fix that'll remedy it.
>
> I'm not here.

Hi Paul

I would *really* appreciate that!

--Jeff

a request:

someone(s) please post at least one example each
(but preferably more) of Erv Wilson's "diaphonic",
"triaphonic", and "tetraphonic cycles" ... to be
included in the Encyclopaedia of Tuning definitions.

please be as detailed as possible: ratios, letter-names,
cents-values, etc. some lattices would really be great.

thanks.

-monz

some diaphonic cycles can be seen on page 3
of
http://www.anaphoria.com/tres.PDF
I have never heard him use the other terms but i would assume it would be
using this same method applied to divisions of the octaves into 3 parts
based on some type of division 3-4-5-6 .
Are you sure these other terms originate with Erv even though they are
implied as a possibility?

monz wrote:

> a request:
>
> someone(s) please post at least one example each
> (but preferably more) of Erv Wilson's "diaphonic",
> "triaphonic", and "tetraphonic cycles" ... to be
> included in the Encyclopaedia of Tuning definitions.
>
> please be as detailed as possible: ratios, letter-names,
> cents-values, etc. some lattices would really be great.
>
> thanks.
>
> -monz
>
>
>
>
> You can configure your subscription by sending an empty email to one
> of these addresses (from the address at which you receive the list):
> tuning-subscribe@yahoogroups.com - join the tuning group.
> tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com - leave the group.
> tuning-nomail@yahoogroups.com - turn off mail from the group.
> tuning-digest@yahoogroups.com - set group to send daily digests.
> tuning-normal@yahoogroups.com - set group to send individual emails.
> tuning-help@yahoogroups.com - receive general help information.
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

hi kraig,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, kraig grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:

> some diaphonic cycles can be seen on page 3 of
> http://www.anaphoria.com/tres.PDF

thanks for that. i had a feeling that *you* would be
answering this query. :)

unfortunately, as usual with Erv's work, i still don't
understand what i'm looking at. can you offer some
explanation to supplement those diagrams?

> I have never heard him use the other terms but i would
> assume it would be using this same method applied to
> divisions of the octaves into 3 parts based on some type
> of division 3-4-5-6 .
> Are you sure these other terms originate with Erv even
> though they are implied as a possibility?

i've had those pages in the Tuning Dictionary for the
last 5 years, because John Chalmers gave me permission
to use the entire glossary from his book, and they were
in there. i haven't talked to John for quite some time
... i should ask him about this too ... he doesn't seem
to have been around here (the tuning list) for awhile.

-monz

Monz,

I've looked at the drawings Kraig pointed to and agree that Erv's
work is cryptic. It's not that hard to find the pattern, but it's not
clear which parts of the pattern are essential to the definition and
which are coincidence. So with that caveat in mind, would the
following be considered triaphonic:

8 9 10
15 16 17 18 19 20
30 31 32 33 34 35 36

where the first string would run 8 to 16, the second 12 to 24 and the
third 18 to 36. The diaphonic cycles move from one string to a
second with the tranisition point somewhere between 4/3 and 3/2. A
triaphonic cycle should have three strings with transition points
somewhere around 5/4 and 5/3, assuming I'm generalizing the right
aspects of the pattern.

David Bowen

Hi David!
This seems to be possible. Like i said , i am not sure who came up with
the latter terms and what parts of the pattern they found essential. I do
believe that the original involved the diophantine equation. i do not know
of a triophantine one:)< i am going out of town and still trying to reach
Erv . At which time i will check and possibility get a definition from him
too although i did mail one to Monz.
The thing that seems awkward about this is one is not repeating parts
of the harmonic series, in fact they are exclusive. This seems to be on of
the thing Wilson was trying to do. I may not be what the 'triaphonic '
inventor wanted to do. Chalmers does have examples of some of things in
his book but have not gotten it all yet. unfortunately. i am leaving in
min for a few days so this will have to wait.
see page 159 of his book or maybe someone can put up these pages in the
mean time

"David M. Bowen" wrote:

> Monz,
>
> I've looked at the drawings Kraig pointed to and agree that Erv's
> work is cryptic. It's not that hard to find the pattern, but it's not
> clear which parts of the pattern are essential to the definition and
> which are coincidence. So with that caveat in mind, would the
> following be considered triaphonic:
>
> 8 9 10
> 15 16 17 18 19 20
> 30 31 32 33 34 35 36
>
> where the first string would run 8 to 16, the second 12 to 24 and the
> third 18 to 36. The diaphonic cycles move from one string to a
> second with the tranisition point somewhere between 4/3 and 3/2. A
> triaphonic cycle should have three strings with transition points
> somewhere around 5/4 and 5/3, assuming I'm generalizing the right
> aspects of the pattern.
>
> David Bowen
>
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST