Pythagorean "expressive intonation" in 1850 Barret Oboe Method

hello all,

i've been using A.M.R. Barret's Oboe Method for
my oboe students ... it's considered to be the
oboist's "bible".

the book was first published in 1850, for an oboe
which had a new key system designed by Barret and
manufactured by Triebert. this oboe key-mechanism
eventually evolved into the "conservatory" system
which is standard today ... so the oboe for which
this method was written is a little different from
oboes generally used today.

the most commonly available version of the Method
these days is a new edition published by Kalmus which
eliminates Barret's "obsolete" preface and fingering
charts, and that's the version i've used until now.

i just bought a copy of the Boosey & Hawkes facsimile
of the old original edition, and discovered to my delight
that there's some valuable tuning information in that
"obsolete" preface -- which is actually exactly what
i expected to find.

Article VIII, which discusses sharps and flats and
key-signatures, contains two "special articles" under it.
Special Article No. 1, "Of Intervals, Tones, and Semitones",
states and illustrates the following:

>> "The tone is an interval composed of nine partial intervals
>> called "commas" or of two semitones, one of which is
>> Chromatic and the other Diatonic. The chromatic semitone
>> is composed of five commas and always occurs between
>> two notes of the same name. The diatonic semitone
>> composed of four commas always occurs between two notes
>> of different names."

the musical illustration shows the following:

>> C ... 5 commas ... C# ... 4 commas ... D
>>
>> A ... 5 commas ... Ab ... 4 commas ... G

this is precisely a description of the Pythagorean
"expressive intonation" which became popular right near
the time of Mozart's death, and which reversed the common
55edo meantone-based conception of a "whole-tone" being
9 commas, but with "diatonic semitone" = 5 commas and
"chromatic semitone" = 4 commas.

see my webpages for more:

http://www.tonalsoft.com/enc/pythag.htm

http://www.tonalsoft.com/monzo/55edo/55edo.htm

-monz

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:

> hello all,
>
>
> i've been using A.M.R. Barret's Oboe Method for
> my oboe students ... it's considered to be the
> oboist's "bible".
>
> the book was first published in 1850, for an oboe
> which had a new key system designed by Barret and
> manufactured by Triebert. this oboe key-mechanism
> eventually evolved into the "conservatory" system
> which is standard today ... so the oboe for which
> this method was written is a little different from
> oboes generally used today.

i should have included this in the first post, because
now it's not really tuning-related ... but for those
who are interested in following the development of the
oboe, or key-mechanisms on woodwind instruments in
general, i have some comments and photos here:

http://www.tonalsoft.com/monzo/schoenberg/Vienna1905.htm

this 1850 edition of the Barret Method provides
two fingering charts:

1) one chart for the "simple system" key-mechanism
(Triebert's "Systeme 4" of 1843), which was the only
fingering-chart included in the original edition of
Barret's Method; and

2) a second chart, for the "thumb-plate" mechanism
(Triebert's "Systeme 5" of 1849). this "thumb-plate"
mechanism was Barret's "new" design.

> the most commonly available version of the Method
> these days is a new edition published by Kalmus which
> eliminates Barret's "obsolete" preface and fingering
> charts, and that's the version i've used until now.
>
> i just bought a copy of the Boosey & Hawkes facsimile
> of the old original edition, and discovered to my delight
> that there's some valuable tuning information in that
> "obsolete" preface -- which is actually exactly what
> i expected to find.
>
> Article VIII, which discusses sharps and flats and
> key-signatures, contains two "special articles" under it.
> Special Article No. 1, "Of Intervals, Tones, and Semitones",
> states and illustrates the following:
>
> >> "The tone is an interval composed of nine partial intervals
> >> called "commas" or of two semitones, one of which is
> >> Chromatic and the other Diatonic. The chromatic semitone
> >> is composed of five commas and always occurs between
> >> two notes of the same name. The diatonic semitone
> >> composed of four commas always occurs between two notes
> >> of different names."
>
>
> the musical illustration shows the following:
>
> >> C ... 5 commas ... C# ... 4 commas ... D
> >>
> >> A ... 5 commas ... Ab ... 4 commas ... G
>
>
> this is precisely a description of the Pythagorean
> "expressive intonation" which became popular right near
> the time of Mozart's death, and which reversed the common
> 55edo meantone-based conception of a "whole-tone" being
> 9 commas, but with "diatonic semitone" = 5 commas and
> "chromatic semitone" = 4 commas.
>
>
> see my webpages for more:
>
> http://www.tonalsoft.com/enc/pythag.htm
>
> http://www.tonalsoft.com/monzo/55edo/55edo.htm

however, in the original "simple system" fingering-chart,
Barret's comments say:

>> "The foregoing chromatic scales, placed exactly one
>> over the other [the top uses sharps and double-sharps,
>> the bottom uses flats and naturals], are intended to
>> assist pupils, in ascertaining the identity that exists
>> between certain notes, which although differently written,
>> sound exactly the same, such as A# and Bb, E# and F &c.
>> The object of these scales is to show at a glance that
>> the only difference is in the notation."

so there's contradictory information: "Special Article No. 1"
says that A# and Bb (&c.) are different, A# being a "comma"
higher than Bb, while the fingering chart explicitly says
that they are the same.

-monz