concerning Sagittarius (Sagittal)

Dave Keenan wrote:

> ________________________________________________________________________
> > Message: 15
> Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 19:55:33 +1000
> From: Dave Keenan <d.keenan@bigpond.net.au>
> Subject: Re: concerning Sagittarius
> > > Similarly we prefer 7 and 14-ET to be notated as subsets of 56-ET, and for > 21-ET to be notated as a subset of 63-ET. Both 56 and 63 are notatable with > the Lite subset. But we also have SA7N, SA14N and SA21N. 7 and 14-ET are > native-fifth-notatable using the Lite subset, but native 21-ET notation > needs the |\ symbol. The notational fifth for these is of course 4/7 oct. > Native 7-ET notation is of course just the 7 nominals.

I'm confronted now with the need to move beyond a note system that I used with the 11 limit tonality diamond to one that can accommodate the 15-limit one. I had used "#" for sharp, "b" for flat, and "+", "++", "-", and "--", which suited my purposes well for the 37-43 tones I was using. Now with 15-limit I need about 59 note names, and thought that this would be a good time to move to the Sagittal font family.

So I installed the Sagittal Lite font in windows. I then loaded into Scala the Diamond15.scl file, and selected the SAJI1 notation system, and Scala puts up a nice Sagittal keyboard for me. That's where I get lost.

The font images that Scala uses are not present in the Sagittal Lite font. See the screen shot from Scala at http://prodgers13.home.comcast.net/listen/Scala-Sagittal.gif and the screen shot of the Windows font dialog for Sagittal Lite at http://prodgers13.home.comcast.net/listen/Sagittal.gif .

For example, Scala shows predominantly downward sloping accidentals, and only a few upward sloping ones. Of the 8 symbols Scala shows for modifying D, I can only find 5 of them in the font set. The Sagittal lite font seems to be missing the ones Scala refers to as D~!!( at (14:13) and the next one in the scale at (13:12), which Scala calls D(!/. There are a number of others that are in Scala but not the font.

Can someone help me find the missing upward accidentals? Also, I see a few characters in the Sagittal Lite font that are not used in Scala, including the ones at x26, x30, x32, x3F, x42, x51, x9A, xAC, xC5, xCF, xD1, xDE, xE1, xEE, xF0, xFA, and xFD. These are mostly upward accidentals. Is there a mapping going on that I'm not aware of?

I'd like to get to the point where I can use this font to generate LilyPond scores. This will take some work, and I want to make sure I get it right.

Prent Rodgers
Confused.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Prent Rodgers <prentrodgers@c...>
wrote:
> I'm confronted now with the need to move beyond a note system that
I
> used with the 11 limit tonality diamond to one that can
accommodate the
> 15-limit one.
...
> I'd like to get to the point where I can use this font to generate
> LilyPond scores. This will take some work, and I want to make sure
I get
> it right.
>
>
> Prent Rodgers
> Confused.

Hi Prent,

I'm sorry the documentation isn't out yet.

Go George Go!

You're quite right. The Lite subset of Sagittal is insufficient to
notate 15-limit JI.

If you reply to this message, but send to my email, not the tuning
list, so that I get your email address, then I can send you what you
need, as an attachment.

Regards,
-- Dave Keenan

Dave,
I think I'm getting close to figuring it out. I matched a list of
accidentals in a 72-tone scale prepared by George Secor to a set of
the 59 I need to notate 15 Limit Diamond + 2nd Ratios (see Novaro 1927
Sistema Natural) in Sagittal Notation from Scala. My confusion was in
some of the accidentals George used were not in the font. I
substituted and continued working. I can fix that later.

Please send what you have so I don't make any irrecoverable mistakes
in my rush to get to the 15-limit.

Prent Rodgers
prentrodgers@comcast.net

> I'm sorry the documentation isn't out yet.
>
> Go George Go!
>
> You're quite right. The Lite subset of Sagittal is insufficient to
> notate 15-limit JI.
>
> If you reply to this message, but send to my email, not the tuning
> list, so that I get your email address, then I can send you what you
> need, as an attachment.
>
> Regards,
> -- Dave Keenan

HI Prent!
Are you referring to a notation or notes Novaro added to fill in the
gaps, and if the latter, do you mind discussing which ones.
Just in case this might be useful to you on pages 9-12 of
http://www.anaphoria.com/tres.PDF
Erv has a few notes on a diamond taken out to this many places

I know there is somewhere that he has mapped it out out a 53 tone keyboard
by i can't seem to find it at the moment. which is odd cause i know he has
put it out in a few different papers. exhaustion

Prent Rodgers wrote:

> Dave,
> I think I'm getting close to figuring it out. I matched a list of
> accidentals in a 72-tone scale prepared by George Secor to a set of
> the 59 I need to notate 15 Limit Diamond + 2nd Ratios (see Novaro 1927
> Sistema Natural) in Sagittal Notation from Scala.

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Keenan" <d.keenan@b...> wrote:
> ...
> I'm sorry the documentation isn't out yet.
>
> Go George Go!

Just to let everyone else know that I'm working on a highly unusual
tutorial for the Sagittal notation that I *absolutely guarantee*
nobody will want to miss (even if you have no intention whatsoever of
using the notation) and that we expect to have the first installment
available very soon.

Also, this is Dave's way of cheering me on (and hinting that I should
be writing instead of posting messages).

Bye now!

--George

Kraig,

The Scala file Diamond15.scd includes the following ratios that aren't
part of a 15-limit diamond:

38:27
50:39
21:16
45:32
64:45
32:21
64:39
27:16

I don't know enough about tuning to guess why they are in this scale,
which according to the Scala documentation predates Partch.

I enjoyed looking at tres.pdf. Erv does indeed have a 15-limit diamond
called "Cassandra". I don't know why he put parenthesis around the
13:11 and 22:13, and blacked out the 15:14 and 28:15. It might have
something to do with his keyboard design.

Prent Rodgers

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, kraig grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:
> HI Prent!
> Are you referring to a notation or notes Novaro added to fill in the
> gaps, and if the latter, do you mind discussing which ones.
> Just in case this might be useful to you on pages 9-12 of
> http://www.anaphoria.com/tres.PDF
> Erv has a few notes on a diamond taken out to this many places
>

HI Prent!

Prent Rodgers wrote:

> Kraig,
>
> The Scala file Diamond15.scd includes the following ratios that aren't
> part of a 15-limit diamond:
>
> 38:27
> 50:39
> 21:16
> 45:32
> 64:45
> 32:21
> 64:39
> 27:16
>
> I don't know enough about tuning to guess why they are in this scale,
> which according to the Scala documentation predates Partch.

I don't know what this could be. this is strange. Partch may have gotten
the diamond from Meyer (1927)
but i don't believe Meyer took it out that far. Novaro has the 7 limit
with the gaps filled in.
Fascinating that Meyer and Novaro would come up with the diamond in the
same year.

>
>
> I enjoyed looking at tres.pdf. Erv does indeed have a 15-limit diamond
> called "Cassandra". I don't know why he put parenthesis around the
> 13:11 and 22:13, and blacked out the 15:14 and 28:15. It might have
> something to do with his keyboard design.

yes on Page 8 you can see this. the other pages show the overlaps if you
transpose the diamond to other scale degrees

>
>
> Prent Rodgers
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, kraig grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:
> > HI Prent!
> > Are you referring to a notation or notes Novaro added to fill in the
> > gaps, and if the latter, do you mind discussing which ones.
> > Just in case this might be useful to you on pages 9-12 of
> > http://www.anaphoria.com/tres.PDF
> > Erv has a few notes on a diamond taken out to this many places
> >
>
>
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>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Prent Rodgers" <prentrodgers@c...>
wrote:
> Dave,
> I think I'm getting close to figuring it out. I matched a list of
> accidentals in a 72-tone scale prepared by George Secor to a set of
> the 59 I need to notate 15 Limit Diamond + 2nd Ratios (see Novaro
1927
> Sistema Natural) in Sagittal Notation from Scala. My confusion was
in
> some of the accidentals George used were not in the font. I
> substituted and continued working. I can fix that later.
>
> Please send what you have so I don't make any irrecoverable mistakes
> in my rush to get to the 15-limit.
>
> Prent Rodgers

Prent,

I suggest that you also try the ratio vector calculator (shift+alt+V)
to view alternate spellings for your ratios. Besides displaying
notation with both the actual symbol and ascii characters, the
calculator gives two different Sagittal spellings for most ratios
(using different nominals). This allows you, for example, to spell
14/9 as either:
a lowered 6th: A!!!) or Ab!)
or
a raised 5th: G(|\

Dave and I consider the first of these the generally preferred
spelling (where tonal context does not dictate otherwise), and this
is the one that should (and in fact does in this case) appear on the
chromatic clavier and as the first choice on the "edit current scale"
screen. But since we have not yet tested this exhaustively
(especially above the 13 prime limit), we can't guarantee that
the "preferred" spellings will be shown this way for all ratios.

The position of a ratio in a scale may be the overriding factor in
determining its desired spelling. One notable example is 14/11,
which may function in one heptatonic scale as a 3rd and in another as
a 4th. In such instances the best choice should be fairly obvious.

--George

>Prent,
>
>I suggest that you also try the ratio vector
>calculator (shift+alt+V)

Hey, that's cool. Didn't know that was there.

-Carl

George,

Scala Shift-Alt-V works great for seeing the alternative note names and accidentals. I was able to do this for all the 15-limit tonality diamond and decided that all of the choices Dave Keenan made in the Sagittal Athenian Notation for Just intonation work well for my C based diamond. I noticed that Scala omits the following ratios:

15:13
22:13
26:15

I'm not too worried about the choice of note names for those ratios. The first few notes of each key are in a nice "thirds" relationship:

C:E:G:B:D:F:A
A:C:E:G:B:D:F
F:A:C:E:G:B:D
D:F:A:C:E:G:B
B:D:F:A:C:E:G
G:B:D:E:A:C:E <-- the 14:11 is E, which I may want to make F
E:G:B:D:F:A:C
D:F:A:C:E:G:B

A copy of my 15 limit diamonds are at http://www.xanga.com/music1024
or http://prodgers13.home.comcast.net/listen/diamond-15.gif
and http://prodgers13.home.comcast.net/listen/diamond-15-inc.gif
with some commentary. It's a weblog so newer entries scroll the old ones off the main page.

Prent Rodgers

> >Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 14:19:50 -0000
> From: "George D. Secor" <gdsecor@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: concerning Sagittarius (Sagittal)
>>Prent, >
I suggest that you also try the ratio vector
>calculator (shift+alt+V)
>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Prent Rodgers <prentrodgers@c...>
wrote:
> George,
>
> Scala Shift-Alt-V works great for seeing the alternative note names
and
> accidentals. I was able to do this for all the 15-limit tonality
diamond
> and decided that all of the choices Dave Keenan made in the
Sagittal
> Athenian Notation for Just intonation work well for my C based
diamond.

Dave wrote to me off-list that he had settled this with you, and I am
totally in agreement with what you now have.

> A copy of my 15 limit diamonds are at http://www.xanga.com/music1024

Wow, you wasted no time getting that out there. I'm impressed!

> or http://prodgers13.home.comcast.net/listen/diamond-15.gif
> and http://prodgers13.home.comcast.net/listen/diamond-15-inc.gif
> with some commentary. It's a weblog so newer entries scroll the old
ones
> off the main page.

Wow, you wasted no time getting that out. I'm impressed!

--George

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Prent Rodgers <prentrodgers@c...>
wrote:
> George,
>
> Scala Shift-Alt-V works great for seeing the alternative note names
and
> accidentals. I was able to do this for all the 15-limit tonality
diamond
> and decided that all of the choices Dave Keenan made in the
Sagittal
> Athenian Notation for Just intonation work well for my C based
diamond.
> I noticed that Scala omits the following ratios:
>
> 15:13
> 22:13
> 26:15

¿What is this mysterious twisted Scala file, exactly? ¿Where does it
come from?

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus" <paul@s...> wrote:

> ¿What is this mysterious twisted Scala file, exactly? ¿Where does
it
> come from?

¿Spanish keyboard?