Diatonic Cactus

http://tinyurl.com/yswbd

Discuss (I have to run . . .)

couldn't get it to work

wallyesterpaulrus wrote:

> http://tinyurl.com/yswbd
>
> Discuss (I have to run . . .)
>
>
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

on 5/4/04 3:26 PM, wallyesterpaulrus <paul@stretch-music.com> wrote:

> http://tinyurl.com/yswbd
>
> Discuss (I have to run . . .)

Imagine getting inside one of those geodesic-ish configurations with the
vibes mounted pointing outward from you in all directions. Would look great
on stage.

-Kurt

somehow even with a different browser , it doesn't' work

Kurt Bigler wrote:

> on 5/4/04 3:26 PM, wallyesterpaulrus <paul@stretch-music.com> wrote:
>
> > http://tinyurl.com/yswbd
> >
> > Discuss (I have to run . . .)
>
> Imagine getting inside one of those geodesic-ish configurations with the
> vibes mounted pointing outward from you in all directions. Would look great
> on stage.
>
> -Kurt
>
>
> You can configure your subscription by sending an empty email to one
> of these addresses (from the address at which you receive the list):
> tuning-subscribe@yahoogroups.com - join the tuning group.
> tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com - leave the group.
> tuning-nomail@yahoogroups.com - turn off mail from the group.
> tuning-digest@yahoogroups.com - set group to send daily digests.
> tuning-normal@yahoogroups.com - set group to send individual emails.
> tuning-help@yahoogroups.com - receive general help information.
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, kraig grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:

> somehow even with a different browser , it doesn't' work

You probably just needed to be signed into Yahoo. You have a Yahoo
profile so you can probably do it. But I'll try e-mailing you the
cactus too . . .

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Kurt Bigler <kkb@b...> wrote:
> on 5/4/04 3:26 PM, wallyesterpaulrus <paul@s...> wrote:
>
> > http://tinyurl.com/yswbd
> >
> > Discuss (I have to run . . .)
>
> Imagine getting inside one of those geodesic-ish configurations
with the
> vibes mounted pointing outward from you in all directions. Would
look great
> on stage.
>
> -Kurt

Or for mother's day, a pretty plant that plays a tune:

http://tinyurl.com/28rjt

http://anaphoria.com/cactus.PDF
a different cactus
wallyesterpaulrus wrote:

>
>
> You probably just needed to be signed into Yahoo. You have a Yahoo
> profile so you can probably do it. But I'll try e-mailing you the
> cactus too . . .
>
>
>
>
>
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

Thanks Kraig. I had not seen a "spirogram" before. This is very
similar to the "floragrams" I'm working on except I use exponential
growth ('logarithmic' spiral instead of spiral of archimedes) -- this
makes for identical shapes around each node, much as in a generalized
keyboard layout, except the sizes change.

I'm not getting why Erv, while mentioning the (11+6, 17+11, . . .)
noble or "zig-zag", convergent, .177998211118, uses something he
calls capital omega, .177940063652, which apparently is 1.13126746369
acoustically. What is this latter constant, capital omega?

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, kraig grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:
> http://anaphoria.com/cactus.PDF
> a different cactus
> wallyesterpaulrus wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > You probably just needed to be signed into Yahoo. You have a Yahoo
> > profile so you can probably do it. But I'll try e-mailing you the
> > cactus too . . .
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> -- -Kraig Grady
> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
> http://www.anaphoria.com
> The Wandering Medicine Show
> KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

I am not sure, i will try to ask

wallyesterpaulrus wrote:

>
>
> I'm not getting why Erv, while mentioning the (11+6, 17+11, . . .)
> noble or "zig-zag", convergent, .177998211118, uses something he
> calls capital omega, .177940063652, which apparently is 1.13126746369
> acoustically. What is this latter constant, capital omega?
>
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

Erv says that Omega is sometimes used ( by the russians) to mean gold. you
can find it on the scale tree page 18. He described it as logarithmic
without any prompting on my end

wallyesterpaulrus wrote:

> Thanks Kraig. I had not seen a "spirogram" before. This is very
> similar to the "floragrams" I'm working on except I use exponential
> growth ('logarithmic' spiral instead of spiral of archimedes) -- this
> makes for identical shapes around each node, much as in a generalized
> keyboard layout, except the sizes change.
>
> I'm not getting why Erv, while mentioning the (11+6, 17+11, . . .)
> noble or "zig-zag", convergent, .177998211118, uses something he
> calls capital omega, .177940063652, which apparently is 1.13126746369
> acoustically. What is this latter constant, capital omega?
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, kraig grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:
> > http://anaphoria.com/cactus.PDF
> > a different cactus
> > wallyesterpaulrus wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > You probably just needed to be signed into Yahoo. You have a Yahoo
> > > profile so you can probably do it. But I'll try e-mailing you the
> > > cactus too . . .
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > -- -Kraig Grady
> > North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
> > http://www.anaphoria.com
> > The Wandering Medicine Show
> > KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST
>
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, kraig grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:
> Erv says that Omega is sometimes used ( by the russians) to mean
>gold.

Hmm . . . (?)

> you
> can find it on the scale tree page 18.

Nope. I see the noble or "zig-zag" convergent .177998211118 there
(with two less digits), but I don't see Omega or .177940063652.

> He described it as logarithmic
> without any prompting on my end

Well, either in this logarthmic form or in its acoustic form as
1.13126746369, I don't know what it means, where it comes from, why
it's interesting, etc.

>
> wallyesterpaulrus wrote:
>
> > Thanks Kraig. I had not seen a "spirogram" before. This is very
> > similar to the "floragrams" I'm working on except I use
exponential
> > growth ('logarithmic' spiral instead of spiral of archimedes) --
this
> > makes for identical shapes around each node, much as in a
generalized
> > keyboard layout, except the sizes change.
> >
> > I'm not getting why Erv, while mentioning the (11+6, 17+11, . . .)
> > noble or "zig-zag", convergent, .177998211118, uses something he
> > calls capital omega, .177940063652, which apparently is
1.13126746369
> > acoustically. What is this latter constant, capital omega?
> >
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, kraig grady <kraiggrady@a...>
wrote:
> > > http://anaphoria.com/cactus.PDF
> > > a different cactus
> > > wallyesterpaulrus wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > You probably just needed to be signed into Yahoo. You have a
Yahoo
> > > > profile so you can probably do it. But I'll try e-mailing you
the
> > > > cactus too . . .
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > -- -Kraig Grady
> > > North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
> > > http://www.anaphoria.com
> > > The Wandering Medicine Show
> > > KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST
> >
> >
>
> -- -Kraig Grady
> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
> http://www.anaphoria.com
> The Wandering Medicine Show
> KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus" <paul@s...> wrote:

> I'm not getting why Erv, while mentioning the (11+6, 17+11, . . .)
> noble or "zig-zag", convergent, .177998211118, uses something he
> calls capital omega, .177940063652, which apparently is 1.13126746369
> acoustically. What is this latter constant, capital omega?

Possibly (95-sqrt(5))/82, which in terms of the golden ratio phi is
(48 - phi)/41, and which because of that has a simple continued fraction.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:

> Possibly (95-sqrt(5))/82, which in terms of the golden ratio phi is
> (48 - phi)/41, and which because of that has a simple continued
fraction.

That's a little cryptic; the point is that if my identification is
correct, then Omega = 1 + 1/(6+phi).

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...>
wrote:
>
> > Possibly (95-sqrt(5))/82, which in terms of the golden ratio phi
is
> > (48 - phi)/41, and which because of that has a simple continued
> fraction.
>
> That's a little cryptic; the point is that if my identification is
> correct, then Omega = 1 + 1/(6+phi).

Good detective work! So it's an *acoustic* noble ratio as opposed to
the *logarithmic* ones that come up in the scale tree. But why is the
number 6 special here? Does Erv also have names for 1 + 1/(5+phi) =
1.15110227625000, 1 + 1/(4+phi) = 1.17799821111843, 1 + 1/(3+phi) =
1.21654236465910, and 1 + 1/(2+phi) = 1.27639320225002?

Surely he must have a name for
1 + 1/(1+phi) = 1 + 1/phi^2 = 3 - phi = 1.38196601125011?

He picked this out cause it was on the cactus itself. Omega just another
name for gold. On the Horograms 1.381 he just calls fibonacci. there is a
lucas and hanson designations also and there are the only ones i remember
odd hand. He has a few others not in the original set for some Pelog and
Slendro Etc. which should go up at some time.
I have a show happening next week so i might not get back to answering
much for the next 10 days.

wallyesterpaulrus wrote:

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...>
> wrote:
> >
> > > Possibly (95-sqrt(5))/82, which in terms of the golden ratio phi
> is
> > > (48 - phi)/41, and which because of that has a simple continued
> > fraction.
> >
> > That's a little cryptic; the point is that if my identification is
> > correct, then Omega = 1 + 1/(6+phi).
>
> Good detective work! So it's an *acoustic* noble ratio as opposed to
> the *logarithmic* ones that come up in the scale tree. But why is the
> number 6 special here? Does Erv also have names for 1 + 1/(5+phi) =
> 1.15110227625000, 1 + 1/(4+phi) = 1.17799821111843, 1 + 1/(3+phi) =
> 1.21654236465910, and 1 + 1/(2+phi) = 1.27639320225002?
>
> Surely he must have a name for
> 1 + 1/(1+phi) = 1 + 1/phi^2 = 3 - phi = 1.38196601125011?
>
>
> You can configure your subscription by sending an empty email to one
> of these addresses (from the address at which you receive the list):
> tuning-subscribe@yahoogroups.com - join the tuning group.
> tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com - leave the group.
> tuning-nomail@yahoogroups.com - turn off mail from the group.
> tuning-digest@yahoogroups.com - set group to send daily digests.
> tuning-normal@yahoogroups.com - set group to send individual emails.
> tuning-help@yahoogroups.com - receive general help information.
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

Erv lists Lucas as .276393202, which is 1/(phi+2). But he's using it
logarithmically (to divide the octave), not acoustically (i.e., as a
frequency ratio). Fibonacci, similarly, is 1/(phi+1) = .381966011,
used logarithmically and not acoustically. In this guise, it and phi
itself generate MOS scales with Fibonacci cardinalities, but they are
not the acoustic golden frequency ratios which are "most irrational",
etc. The actual frequency ratios for these constants may be obtained
by raising 2 to the power of the given number. What I'm wondering is
whether Omega is part of a larger set of acoustical or multi-purpose
noble ratios Erv has named.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, kraig grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:
> He picked this out cause it was on the cactus itself. Omega just
another
> name for gold. On the Horograms 1.381 he just calls fibonacci.
there is a
> lucas and hanson designations also and there are the only ones i
remember
> odd hand. He has a few others not in the original set for some
Pelog and
> Slendro Etc. which should go up at some time.
> I have a show happening next week so i might not get back to
answering
> much for the next 10 days.
>
> wallyesterpaulrus wrote:
>
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...>
wrote:
> > > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Possibly (95-sqrt(5))/82, which in terms of the golden ratio
phi
> > is
> > > > (48 - phi)/41, and which because of that has a simple
continued
> > > fraction.
> > >
> > > That's a little cryptic; the point is that if my identification
is
> > > correct, then Omega = 1 + 1/(6+phi).
> >
> > Good detective work! So it's an *acoustic* noble ratio as opposed
to
> > the *logarithmic* ones that come up in the scale tree. But why is
the
> > number 6 special here? Does Erv also have names for 1 + 1/(5+phi)
=
> > 1.15110227625000, 1 + 1/(4+phi) = 1.17799821111843, 1 + 1/(3+phi)
=
> > 1.21654236465910, and 1 + 1/(2+phi) = 1.27639320225002?
> >
> > Surely he must have a name for
> > 1 + 1/(1+phi) = 1 + 1/phi^2 = 3 - phi = 1.38196601125011?
> >
> >
> > You can configure your subscription by sending an empty email to
one
> > of these addresses (from the address at which you receive the
list):
> > tuning-subscribe@yahoogroups.com - join the tuning group.
> > tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com - leave the group.
> > tuning-nomail@yahoogroups.com - turn off mail from the group.
> > tuning-digest@yahoogroups.com - set group to send daily digests.
> > tuning-normal@yahoogroups.com - set group to send individual
emails.
> > tuning-help@yahoogroups.com - receive general help information.
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> -- -Kraig Grady
> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
> http://www.anaphoria.com
> The Wandering Medicine Show
> KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

Hello Paul!
This appears to a 'one-off' type of thing coming from the context of
finding. there is o no other set of particularly acoustic based noble
numbers that he has mapped out as a particular set (that i know of).
What you imply here below is that Erv used on acoustical methods and you
imply that there is another. Examples of both would be useful for me to
understand how each works.

wallyesterpaulrus wrote:

> Erv lists Lucas as .276393202, which is 1/(phi+2). But he's using it
> logarithmically (to divide the octave), not acoustically (i.e., as a
> frequency ratio). Fibonacci, similarly, is 1/(phi+1) = .381966011,
> used logarithmically and not acoustically. In this guise, it and phi
> itself generate MOS scales with Fibonacci cardinalities, but they are
> not the acoustic golden frequency ratios which are "most irrational",
> etc. The actual frequency ratios for these constants may be obtained
> by raising 2 to the power of the given number. What I'm wondering is
> whether Omega is part of a larger set of acoustical or multi-purpose
> noble ratios Erv has named.

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

Hi Kraig,

I was implying that Erv uses both conceptions. For example,
his "Fibonacci" generator, with the numerical value 1/(phi+1)
= .381966011, is treated as a fraction of an octave -- specifically,
multiply by 1200 and you get that it's 458.3592135 cents. All the
decimals shown on the scale tree are conceived in this manner, and
they're all noble. Meanwhile, Walter O'Connell's tuning and this
capital omega we just looked at involve treating such decimals *not*
as logarithmic fractions of an octave, but rather as frequency ratios
themselves.

For a simpler example of this distinction, consider the fraction 2/3.
As a logarithmic fraction of an octave, it represents 800 cents.
Meanwhile, as a frequency ratio, it represents a descent of 701.955
cents.

Making sense?

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, kraig grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:
> Hello Paul!
> This appears to a 'one-off' type of thing coming from the context
of
> finding. there is o no other set of particularly acoustic based
noble
> numbers that he has mapped out as a particular set (that i know of).
> What you imply here below is that Erv used on acoustical methods
and you
> imply that there is another. Examples of both would be useful for
me to
> understand how each works.
>
> wallyesterpaulrus wrote:
>
> > Erv lists Lucas as .276393202, which is 1/(phi+2). But he's using
it
> > logarithmically (to divide the octave), not acoustically (i.e.,
as a
> > frequency ratio). Fibonacci, similarly, is 1/(phi+1) = .381966011,
> > used logarithmically and not acoustically. In this guise, it and
phi
> > itself generate MOS scales with Fibonacci cardinalities, but they
are
> > not the acoustic golden frequency ratios which are "most
irrational",
> > etc. The actual frequency ratios for these constants may be
obtained
> > by raising 2 to the power of the given number. What I'm wondering
is
> > whether Omega is part of a larger set of acoustical or multi-
purpose
> > noble ratios Erv has named.
>
> -- -Kraig Grady
> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
> http://www.anaphoria.com
> The Wandering Medicine Show
> KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

Hi Paul!
These two i am quite aware of and Erv has made a point that the scale
tree can be viewed and used in either way

wallyesterpaulrus wrote:

> Hi Kraig,
>
> I was implying that Erv uses both conceptions. For example,
> his "Fibonacci" generator, with the numerical value 1/(phi+1)
> = .381966011, is treated as a fraction of an octave -- specifically,
> multiply by 1200 and you get that it's 458.3592135 cents. All the
> decimals shown on the scale tree are conceived in this manner, and
> they're all noble. Meanwhile, Walter O'Connell's tuning and this
> capital omega we just looked at involve treating such decimals *not*
> as logarithmic fractions of an octave, but rather as frequency ratios
> themselves.
>
> For a simpler example of this distinction, consider the fraction 2/3.
> As a logarithmic fraction of an octave, it represents 800 cents.
> Meanwhile, as a frequency ratio, it represents a descent of 701.955
> cents.
>
> Making sense?
>
>
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

Yes, I *thought* that you'd made this observation repeatedly in the
past. So I'm unsure what you were asking.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, kraig grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:
> Hi Paul!
> These two i am quite aware of and Erv has made a point that the
scale
> tree can be viewed and used in either way