Digest Number 1

Digest 0, originally sent Tue Dec 29 06:09:54 1998 :
There are 22 messages in this issue.

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Message: 1
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 07:06:59 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Nowitzky <nowitzky@xxxx.xxx.xxxx
Subject: tuning@eartha.mills.edu, madole@dnai.com

Hi everybody!

Once again, the tuning list has been down for at least a week.

At 01:59 AM 12/18/98 -0500, David Madole wrote (Digest 1606 Topic 11):
>Subject: Tuning List Down
>...
>My successor at Mills is not interested in continuing with
>the listserver.
>
>It is time to start to arrange to move the list.
>...

I believe I have found an acceptable solution to the problem.
Until someone can come up with a better idea, I've moved the list to
the "ONElist" mailing list system. It looks pretty stable, and
it's "free", in the way that Hotmail is free (advertiser supported).

Here's how it works. Instead of sending your posts to
"tuning@eartha.mills.edu", send them to "tuning@onelist.com" instead.

I went ahead and signed up all known subscribers. For those of you
who preferred receiving the list in one, daily "digest" (as I do), you
need to switch your subscription to digest mode, by sending an empty
email to "tuning-digest@onelist.com".

Give it a try, and let me know if it isn't working okay. Thanks,

--Mark
+------------------------------------------------------+
| Mark Nowitzky |
| email: nowitzky@alum.mit.edu AIM: Nowitzky |
| www: http://www.pacificnet.net/~nowitzky |
| "If you haven't visited Mark Nowitzky's home |
| page recently, you haven't missed much..." |
+------------------------------------------------------+

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Message: 2
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 07:18:09 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Nowitzky <nowitzky@xxxx.xxx.xxxx
Subject: Copy of Whole TUNING Digest 1607

Here's a copy of the whole last TUNING Digest to come out of the Mills
College server, just to get things going again:

>
> TUNING Digest 1607
>
>snip (repeat of existing digest)
>
+------------------------------------------------------+
| Mark Nowitzky |
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Message: 3
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 09:54:40 -0600 (CST)
From: Paul Hahn <Paul-Hahn@xxxxxxx.xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: All, then best, 7-limit scales with 31 consonances (fwd)

I'm resending this, as it seems to have been a victim of list downage.

--pH <manynote@lib-rary.wustl.edu> http://library.wustl.edu/~manynote
O
NOTE: dehyphenate node to remove spamblock. <*>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 14:05:02 -0600 (CST)
From: Paul Hahn <manynote@library.wustl.edu>
To: tuning@eartha.mills.edu
Subject: Re: All, then best, 7-limit scales with 31 consonances

On Mon, 30 Nov 1998, Paul Hahn wrote:
> There are only three [31-consonance 7-limit JI scales] whose
> smallest scale degree is not smaller than 25:24; they approximate 12TET
> reasonably well. This is the (IMHO) best one:
>
> 42:25------21:20-------21:16
> \'-. .-'/ \'-. .-'/ \'-.
> \ 6:5--/---\--3:2--/---\-15:8
> \ /|\ / \ /|\ / \ /|
> \ | / \ | / \ |
> / \|/ \ / \|/ \ / \|
> / 7:5---------7:4--------35:32
> /.-' '-.\ /.-' '-.\ /.-'
> 8:5---------1:1---------5:4

Incidentally, I just noticed that this scale differs by just one pitch
from a just version of Fokker's 12-pitch 7-limit scale that Dave Keenan
recently rediscovered. The one pitch that differs is 35:32, which needs
to be changed to 9:8. This reduces the number of 7-limit consonances in
the JI version to 30 again, but the 31TET or 1/4-comma meantone versions
have 38.

--pH <manynote@lib-rary.wustl.edu> http://library.wustl.edu/~manynote
O
/\ "'Jever take'n try to give an ironclad leave to
-\-\-- o yourself from a three-rail billiard shot?"

NOTE: dehyphenate node to remove spamblock. <*>

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Message: 4
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 09:55:26 -0600 (CST)
From: Paul Hahn <Paul-Hahn@xxxxxxx.xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: xen keyboards 2 (fwd)

This was from the same day as my other message that bounced, although I
don't remember for sure if it bounced or not. If you get two copies, I
apologize.

--pH <manynote@lib-rary.wustl.edu> http://library.wustl.edu/~manynote
O
/\ "'Jever take'n try to give an ironclad leave to
-\-\-- o yourself from a three-rail billiard shot?"

NOTE: dehyphenate node to remove spamblock. <*>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 07:59:24 -0600 (CST)
From: Paul Hahn <manynote@library.wustl.edu>
To: tuning@eartha.mills.edu
Subject: Re: xen keyboards 2

On Fri, 18 Dec 1998, Carl Lumma wrote:
> For those of you not familiar with this, the Janko keyboard, being
> originally designed for acoustic instruments in 12tET, has keys sharing
the
> same internal lever and strings (as Manuel explained). This causes the
key
> travel to be longer and easier in the rows nearer to the performer, and
> shorter and harder in the rows farther from him. I think it can be agreed
> that this is undesirable. The makers of Janko pianos never solved the
> problem.
> [snip]
> Either way, can anyone come up with a different solution? It would be
> worth a great deal, I think. Might even get one in the history books (I
> think we're all already there anyway, but... :~)

I believe I mentioned Paul Vandervoort on this list a _long_ time
ago--possibly within the first year or so of its existence. Vandervoort
has made some refinements to the Janko keyboard, one of which is a
parallelogram linkage to equalize the leverage. I have a citation
somewhere of an article from the '70s about his ideas, but I haven't
found anything since then (though I haven't looked real recently), so I
don't know if he's still active.

--pH <manynote@lib-rary.wustl.edu> http://library.wustl.edu/~manynote

NOTE: dehyphenate node to remove spamblock. <*>

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Message: 5
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 09:03:41 -0700 (MST)
From: John Starrett <jstarret@xxxx.xxxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: tuning@onelist.com

All-
Nice to be back online with you tunesters. Here's my gossipy
holliday letter to the alternate tuning family-
Haverstick and I are beginning rehearsals today for my CD of
microtonal pop. The tunes cover many styles including ska, reggae, punk,
blues, country and jazz. I know this is a no-no from a marketing
standpoint, but I am on a limited budget and want to showcase only my
best work. We will play in 19, 31 and 34 TET. My stepson Randy is
learning the guitar building trade and I am having him make me a 31TET
bass. The Form CD got a pretty decent review in the local weekly
Westword, and the local jazz station has been playing Haverstick's Jazz
19 with a poetry overlay regularly, although they never mention that it
is out of tune. Maybe that is a good thing. I came across a Greek
internet radio station, and much of the music they played was with a
combination of 12TET backgrounds and obviously non 12 melodies. It works
pretty well, and I'll post the URL when I get back to work. Thanks, Mark
and whoever else started this forum.

John Starrett
http://www-math.cudenver.edu/~jstarret

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Message: 6
deleted
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Message: 7
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 11:40:06 -0500
From: John Maxwell Hobbs <jmax@xxxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: Welcome to tuning@onelist.com

(Deleted)

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Message: 8
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 10:45:11 -0500
From: Gary Morrison <mr88cet@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: tuning@eartha.mills.edu, madole@dnai.com

> I believe I have found an acceptable solution to the problem.
> Until someone can come up with a better idea, I've moved the list to
> the "ONElist" mailing list system.

This sounds fine, but in the presumably unlikely event that we find it
unacceptable (advertisments?), it would not surprise me if I could get my
company to sponsor the list as a community service.

So if you folks at some time in the future find problems with this new
arrangement, let me know that that's the case, and why. If enough concerns
are raised, I'll go chat with my company's community-relations folks.

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Message: 9
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 10:58:51 -0500
From: Gary Morrison <mr88cet@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: (no subject)

> From: John Starrett <jstarret@math.cudenver.edu>
> tuning-digest@onelist.com

Presumably John already figured this out, but I'll point it out so that
everybody will notice.

As I read the subscription information, you send the message *to*
tuning-digest@onelist.com and the message content doesn't matter.

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Message: 10
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 11:27:37 -0500
From: Gary Morrison <mr88cet@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Getting Digest Form

> From: John Maxwell Hobbs <jmax@artswire.org>
> I was on the digest version of this list. I want to be again.

Look down at the bottom of your message (and apparently any other from
the
new list), or also at Mark's announcement message. To get back to digests,
send
a message with arbitrary content to tuning-digest@onelist.com.

(Actually, I can't personally verify that it works; I prefer to receive
individual messages.)

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Message: 11
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 17:58:01 +0000
From: Charles Lucy <lucy@xxxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: John "Longitude" Harrison TV program

For those interested in John Harrison.......

Longitude - A Horizon special - is to be broadcast in UK, on BBC Two on
Monday, 4th January, 1999, at 2130 GMT

see http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_241000/241228.stm

for details

--
~===============================================================~
Charles Lucy - lucy@harmonics.com (LucyScaleDevelopments)
------------ Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -------
by setting tuning and harmonic standards for the next millennium,
and having fun with them.

for information on LucyTuning
See http://www.ilhawaii.net/~lucy
or mirrors at: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~harmonic
and http://www.harmonics.com/lucy/

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Message: 12
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 11:13:20 -0800 (PST)
From: "M. Schulter" <mschulter@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: What is Xeno-Gothic tuning/music?

[Please note that this is a repost to the new Tuning List address, my
original attempt to post to the old address failing. Thanks to those who
helped negotiate the process of finding the List a new home.]

Hello, there.

Recently someone asked about Xeno-Gothic intonation and style, and is
this is (to my best knowledge) a new category, definitions will
necessarily be tentative and not yet informed by the wisdom of
practical experience. However, I can at least offer a definition for
the moment.

To me, _possibly_ the first person to use this term (caution seems
wise on such matters of tuning terminology!), "Xeno-Gothic"
specifically means a 24-note per octave tuning defined as two
otherwise identical 12-note Pythagorean scales tuned a Pythagorean
comma apart.

Typically this would be implemented on a two-manual instrument, with
each manual tuned to an Eb-G# scheme ("Wolf" between these two extreme
notes in the chain of pure 3:2 fifths). It's really arbitrary whether
we take the upper or the lower keyboard as the "standard" or "home"
manual, and in fact this sense of a center might change in the course
of a piece.

Such a tuning produces the standard Pythagorean intervals, plus
variant intervals a Pythagorean comma wider or narrower than the
standard versions. These intervals closely approximate either 5-based
ratios (varying by a regular or syntonic schisma of ~1.95 cents) or
7-based ratios (varying by a septimal schisma of ~3.80 cents).

For example, let's suppose that we take the "standard" keyboard as
Eb-G#, and the "supplementary" keyboard as extending the chain in the
flat direction. Here I'll use a "@" sign to show a note a Pythagorean
comma lower than the version without this sign, maybe easier to grasp
than double flats:

16777216: 8388608:
256:243 14348907 1024:729 128:81 4782969
90.22 270.67 588.27 792.18 972.63
db' eb@' gb' ab' bb@'
_113.7|90.2_90.2|113.7_ _113.7|90.2_113.7|90.2_90.2|113.7_
c@' d@' e@' f@' g@' a@' b@' c@''
531441: 65536: 8192: 2097152: 262144: 32768: 4096: 1048576:
524288 59049 6561 1594323 177147 19683 2187 531441
-23.46 180.45 384.36 474.58 678.49 882.40 1086.31 1176.54
203.91 203.91 90.22 203.91 203.91 203.91 90.22

Keyboard 2: Supplemental
Keyboard 1: Standard

2187:2048 32:27 729:512 6561:4096 16:9
113.7 294.13 611.73 815.64 996.09
c#' eb' f#' g#' bb'
_113.7|90.2_90.2|113.7_ _113.7|90.2_113.7|90.2_90.2|113.7_
c' d' e' f' g' a' b' c''
1:1 9:8 81:64 4:3 3:2 27:16 243:128 2:1
0 203.91 407.82 498.04 701.96 905.87 1109.78 1200
203.91 203.91 90.22 203.91 203.91 203.91 90.22

Note that we get three flavors of popular cadential intervals
characteristically leading to stable 3-limit sonorities. For example,
we have a choice of the usual c-e or c@-e@ (81:64, ~408 cents); the
"smoothed" ~5-based c-e@ (8192:6561, ~384 cents, ~5:4); or the
"accentuated" ~7-based c@-e (43046721:33554432, ~431 cents, ~9:7).

A recent thread on the usual (or "syntonic") and septimal schismas
discusses the theoretical basis for such a tuning.

In my view, "Xeno-Gothic" tends to imply not only the tuning, but a
certain general expectation of a Gothic-like harmonic orientation:
fifths and fourths tend to serve as the favorite stable intervals,
with seconds, thirds, sixths, and sevenths typically resolving to
stable sonorities.

Thus an "accentuated" major third such as f@-a invites a resolution,
for example, to e-b, with a "superefficient" 67-cent semitonal
progression f@-e. Another way of putting this is that our "supermajor
third" needs to expand only a total of about 270 cents to reach a pure
fifth, as opposed to 294 cents with a usual Pythagorean M3. We could
thus view such a resolution as an "exaggerated" version of a standard
Gothic cadential progression. For a possible 14th-century basis for
such wide cadential thirds, people might want to look at recent
threads on the theories of Marchettus of Padua (1318).

A caution: using "7-limit" or "5-limit" in this stylistic context
might be misleading, because I realize that many readers may be more
accustomed to systems treating 7-limit sonorities as stable than to a
system treating them generally in a "Gothic-like" fashion as
combinations inviting resolution to sonorities with fifths and
fourths.

Of course, anyone is free to tune "Xeno-Gothic" (the keyboard
arrangement) and to use it in any way desired; but my implicit context
is the harmonic technique of the 13th-early 15th centuries.

Most respectfully,

Margo Schulter
mschulter@value.net

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Message: 13
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 98 01:25:37 +0530
From: Drew Skyfyre <skyfyre@xxx.xxxx
Subject: guitars & 17-TET

We're back ! Thanks Mark.

Repost of messages that got bounced :

Hi,

First off, thought I'd mention this, in case it strikes anyone's
fancy :

Glancing through the Guitar Player Buyer's Guide at a bookstore
I noticed that French guitar maker Vigier has a production
fretless electric guitar for @$1700.

Now, 2 questions to do with my thinking of getting an el cheapo acoustic
and refretting it to 17-TET. I chose it mainly as I want more and
different notes than there are in 12-TET and 22-TET will probably be
too many frets, too close together for my sometimes clumsy fingers.

1) Are any of you using a 17-TET guitar ?
I'd like to hear about your experiences.

2) I've been going through some of the info I have to do with 17-TET
and it seems like a good thing. I also get the impression that it's
good for what I want to use it for, which is write somewhat commercial
songs.$-) Am I barking up the right tree ?

____________________________________________________________________
Deux :

Hokay, bit more about guitars & 17-TET :
I've been going through the web & the digests I have and came
up with a few leads :

Way back in TD 1418 Haverstick mentioned
>Rod Poole's 17 tone purely fretted axe
Is Rod on the list ? I'd like to know a bit about this
guitar.

Then there is Margo's excellent "Quasi-17-tet by just intonation"
A fascinating and helpful article.

She also mentions Ivor Darreg's use of 17-tet

Monzo recently mentioned :

>We also have Ivor's 17-, 22-, 24-, and 31-equal
>guitars, and I'll be adding those to the webpage
>in short order.

Hope to see it soon, Joe. Could you perhaps put up a picture ?

George Hajdu
<http://www.uni-muenster.de/Musikhochschule/Dozenten/Hajdu/Hajdu.html>
has done some work in 17-tet, as has been mentioned here before.

This book/cassette is listed on his site :
17 T�ne. A collection of compositions in 17-tone equal temperament by C.
Barlow,
C.Bauckholt, G. Hajdu, C.J. Walter, and C. Wilkens. Georg Hajdu (editor).
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
At
<http://www.rism.harvard.edu/MusicLibrary/newbooks/August97_sco.html>
I found this reference to it :
New Scores, August 1997

17 Tone : Sammelband mit Kompositionen in siebzehnstufig-temperierter
Stimmung mit
Aufnahmen auf beiliegender Musikkassette = 17 tones : collection of
compositions in
17-tone tempered tuning with recordings on enclosed cassette / herausgegeben
von Georg
Hajdu. Siebzehn Tone. Koln : Thurmchen Verlag, c1992. -- [HOLLIS# BBF2773]
Loeb Music: Mus 463.291 Cassette classified as C 33329.
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Also :

17 Tones. Proceedings of the International Computer Music Conference,
(1992), 449-450.
<http://www.uni-muenster.de/Musikhochschule/Dozenten/Hajdu/Articles/17_tones
.ICMC.pdf>

Low Energy and Equal Spacing; the Multifactorial Evolution of Tuning
Systems.
Interface, 22, (1993), 319-333.
<http://www.uni-muenster.de/Musikhochschule/Dozenten/Hajdu/Articles/LowEnerg
y.pdf>

I'm looking for articles, papers, etc. that explores the
possibilities of 17-tet. Also, specific to the guitar, I'd appreciate
any pointers to how it could be strung & tuned, etc.

Cheers All,
Drew
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"I think the bees 'suspect' something."
- Winnie the Pooh

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Drew Skyfyre <skyfyre@usa.net>

"It irritates me that neither Lycurgus nor Plato had any
knowledge of them,...
How remote from such perfection would Plato find that
Republic which he thought up
'viri a diis recentes' (men fresh from the gods)."

-Michel de Montaigne (1533-1592), "On the Cannibals",an essay.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Message: 14
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 98 01:25:54 +0530
From: Drew Skyfyre <skyfyre@xxx.xxxx
Subject: MIDI file oddities

In case anyone's interested I found some sites with
some interesting MIDI files :

Arabic MIDI files
<http://members.tripod.com/~dalleh/midi.html>

Frank Zappa zipped MIDI files are on this page
<http://www.pacifier.com/~kurf/>

And here's a nice Etta James Blues MIDI
(Just be sure to change the main melody instrument
to a Jazz guitar patch to get it to smoke a bit more)
<http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/2228/midi/EJames-AtLast.mid>

If anyone knows of sites with traditional Chinese & Japanese
MIDIs, let me know. The only place I found has music that sounds
too PRC (you know, the Reds, the Evil Empire,etc. )

- Drew

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Message: 15
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 12:12:34 +0000
From: Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: onelist.com

As this being my suggestion, let me state that I haven't noticed any
extensive ads or ads I traced to here. I have been on the oddmusic list
for some time. Glad its back.

Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
www.anaphoria.com

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Message: 16
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 15:05:19 EST
From: HPBohlen@xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: tuning@eartha.mills.edu, madole@dnai.com

Thanks a lot, Mark, and Happy New Year!

Heinz Bohlen

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Message: 17
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 15:26:38 EST
From: HPBohlen@xxx.xxx
Subject: Double octave divided into 47 steps

Hello all!

Happy to see the list working again. Here I'm going to repeat my obviously
lost message of December 13 for a third time:

"Ever heard of a scale that divides the double octave into 47 steps? It is
non-octave, naturally, and its equal-tempered version accomodates 7- and
13-limit intervals exceptionally well. I came across it when playing a
little
with "Pythagorean" scale approaches. For those interested I put it up on the
Net:
http://members.aol.com/bpsite/pythagorean.html "

My best wishes for the New Year to you all!

Heinz Bohlen

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Message: 18
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 14:50:41 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Nowitzky <nowitzky@xxxx.xxx.xxxx
Subject: FW: Message from Sarn Ursell

Forwarding a message from Sarn Ursell:

>Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 07:24:53 +1300
>From: Sarn Richard Ursell <thcdelta@pop.ihug.co.nz>
>Subject: Tuning list mesage.
>
>
>To whom it may concern,
>
>You do not know me, as yet, but I am doing my best to put word around about
>4 of my major passions:
>
>1.Microtonal Music and the tonal Universe,
>2.Experimental Musical Instruments-building, listening to, inventing,
>3.Acoustical/Physical Instrument Modelling, of the impossible,
>4.Computer Generated/AI compositional programs.
>
>If you have a taste for the bizzare, the new, and the adventurous,
>I would be glad to hear any ideas.
>I am looking for E-Mails, websites, books, CDs/tapes, magazines, ideas,
>concepts, temperaments, software.
>If there is anything that you do not understand, E-mail me, and I will
>explain!
>
>I am also looking to buy a second hand Mac, with the basic minimum
>specifications for running David Cope's SARA-microtunable MIDI, CDROM,
>memory, ect.
>I am planning to write an Artifical/Computer generated/algorithmic
>composition program that composes microtonal music-I need information as to
>the individual temperaments
>keys/modes/beauty/accidentals/common-and-not-so-common-chords.
>I am trying to get a recording done mid 1999.
>
>Do you want to talk about my "Quiggle/Reverse Quiggle/Quard JI
Temperaments",
>and music made from bizzare mathematical constants?
>I WANT TO HEAR FROM YOU!
>
>
>-<End of message>-
+------------------------------------------------------+
| Mark Nowitzky |
| email: nowitzky@alum.mit.edu AIM: Nowitzky |
| www: http://www.pacificnet.net/~nowitzky |
| "If you haven't visited Mark Nowitzky's home |
| page recently, you haven't missed much..." |
+------------------------------------------------------+

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Message: 19
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 19:26:11 -0500
From: "Debra Shea-Stearns" <stearns@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: guitars & 17-TET

Hello Drew

If you wanted to carry through the conventional open string configuration of
+4th +4th+ 4th+3rd+4th in 17 EDO* you would first have to decide what pitch
you wanted to call home (i.e. your '1/1' reference pitch). While this is
obviously your decision to make (most chromatic cents examples are rendered
C - C...) I'm going to suppose that that '1/1' reference pitch will be a
common guitar like choice such as A (and that we're calling the 5th string
the A string).

As a +4th = +7/17ths of an octave in 17 EDO; 7/17ths of an octave would
equal the 7th fret of your A string... so:

A = 0/17 (+ 7th fret = )
D = 7/17(+ 7th fret = )
G = 14/17

and assuming that we're calling 6/17ths of an octave (at 423.9/17 cents) a
major third (opposed to a 5/17ths at 352.16/17 cents) then:

G = 14/17(+ 6th fret = )
B = 3/17 (+ 7th fret = )
E = 10/17

To tune the low E (6th string) you would fret the 10th fret of the A (5th
string) and tune your open low E string to it (an octave lower, as opposed
to a unison).

All this should lead to an open string subset of 17 EDO that 'looks like' A
@ 0 cents, D @ 494 and 2/17 cents, G @ 988 and 4/17 cents, B @ 1411 and
13/17 cents, E @ 1905 and 15/17 cents, and finally going back and tuning the
low E down a 17 EDO fifth to -705 and 15/17 cents.

E = 706
A = 0
D = 494
G = 988
B = 212
E = 706

Hopefully I'm not just repeating something you already knew?

Respectfully,
D-Stearns

*As far as acronyms go, {E}quidistant {D}ivision of the {O}ctave's- EDO,
certainly seems (to me) a rather colorless creation (immanently indisposed
as it is to the oddly resonant charm of {T}one {E}qual {T}emperament's-TET),
but I do believe it 'better says' what (I believe) 'needs saying'... and as
such I feel somewhat obligated to continue to pretend I like it (and
apologize for saying so).

-----Original Message-----
From: Drew Skyfyre <skyfyre@usa.net>
To: Tuning list <tuning@onelist.com>
Date: Monday, December 28, 1998 2:52 PM
Subject: [tuning] guitars & 17-TET

>From: Drew Skyfyre <skyfyre@usa.net>
>
>We're back ! Thanks Mark.
>
>Repost of messages that got bounced :
>
>Hi,
>
>First off, thought I'd mention this, in case it strikes anyone's
>fancy :
>
>Glancing through the Guitar Player Buyer's Guide at a bookstore
>I noticed that French guitar maker Vigier has a production
>fretless electric guitar for @$1700.
>
>
>Now, 2 questions to do with my thinking of getting an el cheapo acoustic
>and refretting it to 17-TET. I chose it mainly as I want more and
>different notes than there are in 12-TET and 22-TET will probably be
>too many frets, too close together for my sometimes clumsy fingers.
>
>1) Are any of you using a 17-TET guitar ?
> I'd like to hear about your experiences.
>
>2) I've been going through some of the info I have to do with 17-TET
> and it seems like a good thing. I also get the impression that it's
> good for what I want to use it for, which is write somewhat commercial
> songs.$-) Am I barking up the right tree ?
>
>____________________________________________________________________
>Deux :
>
>Hokay, bit more about guitars & 17-TET :
>I've been going through the web & the digests I have and came
>up with a few leads :
>
>Way back in TD 1418 Haverstick mentioned
>>Rod Poole's 17 tone purely fretted axe
>Is Rod on the list ? I'd like to know a bit about this
>guitar.
>
>Then there is Margo's excellent "Quasi-17-tet by just intonation"
>A fascinating and helpful article.
>
>She also mentions Ivor Darreg's use of 17-tet
>
>Monzo recently mentioned :
>
>>We also have Ivor's 17-, 22-, 24-, and 31-equal
>>guitars, and I'll be adding those to the webpage
>>in short order.
>
>Hope to see it soon, Joe. Could you perhaps put up a picture ?
>
>George Hajdu
><http://www.uni-muenster.de/Musikhochschule/Dozenten/Hajdu/Hajdu.html>
>has done some work in 17-tet, as has been mentioned here before.
>
>This book/cassette is listed on his site :
>17 T�ne. A collection of compositions in 17-tone equal temperament by C.
Barlow,
>C.Bauckholt, G. Hajdu, C.J. Walter, and C. Wilkens. Georg Hajdu (editor).
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------
>At
><http://www.rism.harvard.edu/MusicLibrary/newbooks/August97_sco.html>
>I found this reference to it :
>New Scores, August 1997
>
>17 Tone : Sammelband mit Kompositionen in siebzehnstufig-temperierter
Stimmung mit
>Aufnahmen auf beiliegender Musikkassette = 17 tones : collection of
compositions in
>17-tone tempered tuning with recordings on enclosed cassette /
herausgegeben von Georg
>Hajdu. Siebzehn Tone. Koln : Thurmchen Verlag, c1992. -- [HOLLIS# BBF2773]
>Loeb Music: Mus 463.291 Cassette classified as C 33329.
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------
>Also :
>
>17 Tones. Proceedings of the International Computer Music Conference,
(1992), 449-450.
><http://www.uni-muenster.de/Musikhochschule/Dozenten/Hajdu/Articles/17_tone
s.ICMC.pdf>
>
>Low Energy and Equal Spacing; the Multifactorial Evolution of Tuning
Systems.
>Interface, 22, (1993), 319-333.
><http://www.uni-muenster.de/Musikhochschule/Dozenten/Hajdu/Articles/LowEner
gy.pdf>
>
>I'm looking for articles, papers, etc. that explores the
>possibilities of 17-tet. Also, specific to the guitar, I'd appreciate
>any pointers to how it could be strung & tuned, etc.
>
>
>Cheers All,
>Drew
>___________________________________________________________________________
___
>
>"I think the bees 'suspect' something."
>- Winnie the Pooh
>
>
>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>Drew Skyfyre <skyfyre@usa.net>
>
>"It irritates me that neither Lycurgus nor Plato had any
>knowledge of them,...
>How remote from such perfection would Plato find that
>Republic which he thought up
>'viri a diis recentes' (men fresh from the gods)."
>
>-Michel de Montaigne (1533-1592), "On the Cannibals",an essay.
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>
>
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Message: 20
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 22:09:18 -0500
From: "Debra Shea-Stearns" <stearns@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: Copy of Whole TUNING Digest 1607

In the TUNING digest 1607 (topic No. 16), Carl Lumma wrote:

"...Partch would have been greatful for the DX7. He who says otherwise
is a gentleman and... an academic."

While I'm certainly not an academic (or can I claim to be the 'gentleman' so
depicted in this context), I am reasonably certain that I don't really know
much about this or that "would have been" of someone I never knew... Partch
may very well have been grateful for the DX7-I don't know (and wouldn't much
care to hazard a guess). But I will offer a personal point of view or two,
to which (I am fairly certain) someone else is bound to have some heartfelt
objections...

It is my humble opinion that the more unforgettable characteristics of
Partch's music (assuming that the actual music created carries with it
something distinct from the ideologies that buttress it) are tied a lot
tighter to the creation and implementation of new instruments, than they are
the advancement of a tuning that happened to resolutely embrace aural
causation... And though the tuning the instruments the ideologies (and the
man
and the music) all seem inseparable to me now...

I for one am pretty darn thankful someone was seduced by carpentry!

Would the 'inimical leer' that permeates much of his writing on the subject
tuning have lost a bit of its punch (or charm) had his radical and spirited
MUSIC not shined so brilliantly? I (for whatever that's worth) certainly
would have found the shrillness of the intonation reform minded rhetoric
nearly unendurable had the music been some underwhelming, imaginatively
anemic quotidian-"Natural, reasonable, and inherently pleasing" or not.

Would one with alternative tuning inclinations truly find an unanticipated
audio encounter with an instrument such as Ivor Darreg's Megalyra any less
'impressive' or 'interesting' were it tuned to (and played in) 12
equidistant divisions of the octave? Would the same go for a DX7... Does a
compilation like EMI's 1st 'GRAVICHORDS, WHIRLIES AND PYROPHONES' make a
better 'argument' for the design and implementation of interesting new
instruments than a compilation like the tuning forums 'A MICROTONAL MUSIC
EXPERIENCE' does for the design and implementation of interesting new
tunings?

In the end I would suppose that the 'divinity' is either there, or it
ain't...
regardless of whether it is in the gross tactical bone and marrow of the
procedure (or it ain't)... and ultimately that it's more or less for each to
say...

As if its not clear by now-I profoundly disagree with many of the
ideological declarations of the [arch] remedial minded 'intonationalist'...

"For me Partch's message about primitive man is important, and not so nearly
as important as his contribution to tuning in music." [C. Lumma TUNING
digest 1607]

I tend to see the systemic components of music* as a varied lot of
inspiriting, and metaphorically speaking-enclitic understandings-put into
their determinant position by the successful (and influential) realization
of their MUSIC...

But that is not exactly why I wrote, so I guess I've run out my "personal
point of view or two... " Intonation and music are not the same... Having
said
as much I would hope not to hie to my grave having said, "therefore;
mutually exclusive..."

Respectfully,
D-Stearns

*Be those components the beneficial advancements of causal understanding...
of
de-occulting literatim, of pendular oscillations and galvanic skin responses
et-al-'where natural phenomena obeys blind necessity'... Or be they some
remarkable detachments from the physically exact-"at what cross-purpose the
world is dreamt"...

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Message: 21
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 21:48:43 -0500
From: Gary Morrison <mr88cet@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: John "Longitude" Harrison TV program

Charles Lucy wrote:

> For those interested in John Harrison.......
> Longitude - A Horizon special - is to be broadcast in UK, on BBC Two on
> Monday, 4th January, 1999, at 2130 GMT

Is this mostly about what you call LucyTuning, or about Harrison's other
ideas (whatever they may be)?

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Message: 22
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 04:16:53 -0500
From: aloe@xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: John "Longitude" Harrison TV program

At 09:48 PM 12/28/98 -0500, Gary Morrison wrote:
>From: Gary Morrison <mr88cet@texas.net>
>
>Charles Lucy wrote:
>
>> For those interested in John Harrison.......
>> Longitude - A Horizon special - is to be broadcast in UK, on BBC Two on
>> Monday, 4th January, 1999, at 2130 GMT
>
> Is this mostly about what you call LucyTuning, or about Harrison's other
>ideas (whatever they may be)?

It describes his advances in making timepieces sufficiently accurate to
calculate longitude. I don't believe music is mentioned at all.

--Charlie Jordan <http://www.rev.net/~aloe/music>

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