Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning micro-guitar-tunings

Bill!
Both Rod Poole and myself found it worthwhile to tune up my Centaur
tuning on guitar starting on the 7/4. (1/1 being an F a 5/4 below A=440).
frets running across. From there, there are quite a few options. see
http://www.anaphoria.com/tun.per.html

BTW, enjoy your CD!!

William Sethares wrote:

> From: William Sethares <sethares@eceserv0.ece.wisc.edu>
>
> Microguitarists,
>
> I've been talking to Glen Peterson and am
> having him build a guitar with magnetic removable
> fingerboards. Now the trick - what fretings
> to use?
>
> I figure that a 19-tet is a good place to start,
> at least partly because Ive played in it quite a
> bit (using a MIDI guitar controller).
>
> But I also want a JI-style fingerboard, and am having
> trouble visualizing what to do.
> Theres the Catler guitar - which looks great -
> but is highly complicated, and I think Id prefer something
> a lot simpler.
>
> Theres two interacting issues here - how to (re)tune
> the strings and how the frets are placed.
> What kinds of solutions have people come up with,
> either in wood or thought?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bill Sethares
>
>

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com

🔗Glen Peterson <Glen@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx>

It seems I responded to all the micro-guitar-tuning emails in one giant
email. Can anyone say, "digest mode?"

> Sethares said:
>
> Theres two interacting issues here - how to (re)tune
> the strings and how the frets are placed.
> What kinds of solutions have people come up with,
> either in wood or thought?

There are 2 official JI systems that have frets going straight across the
neck and incorporate JI ratios. LucyTuning, which I have never tried, and
12-Tone-Plus which I have tried, and found to be very nice, giving you some
7-limit ratios in addition to the 12tet frets. Each system carries it's own
usage fee.

LucyTuning:
http://lehua.ilhawaii.net/~lucy/lsd/frets.html

12-Tone Plus:
http://home.earthlink.net/~freenote/gtr01.htm
and
http://www.organicdesign.org/peterson/guitars#12tp

Some additional brain-storming:

Sitars have 2-3 playing strings and multiple drone strings. No reason you
couldn't play your guitar the same way, or even tune 4 strings to act as
drones, and have the other 2 strings an octave apart. Just intonation
without the staggered frets! Sitars also have the Sa (or Do in western
solfege) about a fourth above the open note of the highest string. That way
you can get the leading tones below it without switching strings.

> From: Clark <caccola@net1plus.com>
>
> Has anyone had any experience with the TransTrem bridges?
> Supposedly they
> can transpose and lock into place, though it would seem that a certain
> amount of set-up be done to determine the destination of the
> transposition.
> If it actually works, this might be one solution for a
> simpler fretting
> arrangement (at least fewer frets...).

It changes the pitch of all the strings by the same amount, so you can bend
your open E chord into an open F, something not possible with a regular
tremolo (the different strings bend different amounts). Also it has stops
at every half-step of bending up or down, about 5-7 stops in all. How were
you planning to use this? Would you file microtonal stops to bend your open
E chord to an E+20cents chord? There's potential here in that you could
modulate your tuning system by using the whammy bar to give a different tone
set. You are limited by the points where the strings go slack or break.
About a minor third up or down.

> Another equally unresearched idea is along the lines of
> moveable bridges: my
> 19tET chittarone will have two frets near the bridge so that
> the 7 long bass
> strings can cover the temperament.

With moveable bridges, you can approximate other equal temperaments pretty
well, but it's not exact. Unless of course you are talking about harp
strings...

Please explain. How close to the bridge are these 2 frets? Which hand do
you finger them with or do they mechanically touch the strings? I hate to
admit it, but I don't know what a chittarone is. Did you spell it
correctly? Could you post a link to a picture so we all know what you are
talking about?

> from: Kraig
> Both Rod Poole and myself found it worthwhile to tune up
> my Centaur
> tuning on guitar starting on the 7/4. (1/1 being an F a 5/4
> below A=440).
> frets running across. From there, there are quite a few options. see
> http://www.anaphoria.com/tun.per.html

Don't know what a Centaur is either. Half man, half horse in mythology.
Pictures?

> from: dante
> Another idea would be to use a scale from the harmonic
> series, maybe 16-32?
> You can also fret the neck to JI divisions and leave the string tuning
> variable- in fact isn't there a picture of a neck like this
> on Glen's site?
> I wonder what ratios he used?

I think you are referring to the last picture on that page, the Just
Multi-Tonic.
http://www.organicdesign.org/peterson/guitars/index.html#rentals

Not harmonic series exactly, I started with all permutations of small whole
number ratios up to the odd-limit: 9. Then all their inversions, and added
a few fourths up or down from other notes to fill out the gaps at the ends
of the scale. (since the guitar is usually tuned in fourths). It was my
own design, so I am free to disclose everything:

1/1 C +0 open string.
28/27 C# -37
21/20 C# -16
15/14 C# +19
10/9 D -18
9/8 D +4
8/7 D +31
7/6 D# -33
6/5 D# +16
5/4 E -14
9/7 E +35
4/3 F -2
7/5 F# -17
10/7 F# +17
3/2 G +2
14/9 G# -35
8/5 G# +14
5/3 A -16
12/7 A +33
7/4 A# -31
16/9 A# -4
9/5 A# +18
28/15 B -19
40/21 B +16
27/14 B +37
2/1 C +0

I haven't settled on a string tuning yet. I've used some slide tunings, and
standard tuning.

> from dante again:
> What kind of tolerances are possible, even with the best
> craftsmanship? (I'm
> sure Glen's craftsmanship is on this level) I imagine it
> involves several
> different materials that have different reactions to
> heat/humidity over
> time, especially since they're not firmly attached to each other, so I
> wonder how this will effect the tuning accuracy?

Thank you for the compliment. Catler has used an interchangeable fretboard
on his main staggered-fret microtonal guitar for years and said that it was
quite accurate.

---
Glen Peterson
Peterson Stringed Instruments
30 Elm Street North Andover, MA 01845
(978) 975-1527
http://www.organicdesign.org/peterson

🔗gbreed@xxx.xxxxxxxxx.xx.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx)

In-Reply-To: <939318157.5547@onelist.com>
Bill Sethares (TD 343.7) wrote:

> Microguitarists,
>
> I've been talking to Glen Peterson and am
> having him build a guitar with magnetic removable
> fingerboards. Now the trick - what fretings
> to use?
>
> I figure that a 19-tet is a good place to start,
> at least partly because Ive played in it quite a
> bit (using a MIDI guitar controller).

19-tet is an excellent place to start.

> But I also want a JI-style fingerboard, and am having
> trouble visualizing what to do.
> Theres the Catler guitar - which looks great -
> but is highly complicated, and I think Id prefer something
> a lot simpler.

I've thought a lot about JI fretting, and never got anything I thought
would work. Other than equally spaced frets to give a subharmonic series
(this is an arithmetic somethingorother). If Catler's got something to
work, try it. It has to be complicated, to get all the notes you need
out. My belief is that a guitar isn't a natural JI instrument. It isn't
that easy to tune it accurately, it isn't at all easy to play when the
frets get close together. Ditto schismic temperament.

> Theres two interacting issues here - how to (re)tune
> the strings and how the frets are placed.
> What kinds of solutions have people come up with,
> either in wood or thought?

Okay! In wood, I have a 19/20 note per octave meantone fretting. I'm
generally happy with this. It's harder to play than the conventional
fretting, but does sound better and work with a lot of existing music.
Tuning is simple: same note names, switch to meantone tuning. I've also
played with alternative string tunings and a capo to get neutral-third
scales, but have no conclusive results to report.

See http://www.cix.co.uk/~gbreed/instrum.htm for the details. If I were
doing it again, I might leave out the "bonus fret" or even go for only 17
frets to the octave. That extra fret makes it harder to play, and
conventional music never needs it. The natural C7 chord that uses it
doesn't sound that good.

If I could have multiple fretboards, my shopping list would be:

The fretting I use now, but tuned to 31-equal for the difference it'd
make. Also, the variations I suggest above.

Some more fifth-oriented meantone (say 43-equal) with fewer frets, say 12
to the octave but still doubled near the nut because I do need both, and
they're widely spaced up there. This means the open string could be
raised by both a chromatic and diatonic semitone, if that makes it
clearer.

12, 19, 22, 24 and 31-equal. Maybe 17 and 7 as well. And 10, 15, ...
depending on the budget. BTW, a 10-equal fretting could be tuned to
50-equal. Interesting, but not completely viable.

The equivalent of 24 equally spaced frets across the board. This would
mean 12 equally spaced frets to the octave plus however may fit on with
the same spacing towards the bridge. Maybe other frettings like this, but
I'd have to work them out. Things like LucyTuning and golden meantone to
however many frets I think would work.

(Oh, I found it useful to get a printout of the fret positions as I was
thinking about that guitar. So I could get an idea for where my fingers
would go. This wouldn't be as critical for interchangable fingerboards as
the investment per tuning is less.)

A dedicated fretting to work with neutral-third scales. Probably tuned to
31-equal.

I hope you find that helpful! As a mathematically-oriented tuning geek, I
feel duty bound to answer that violin question, to show I'm not only
interested in numbers. I really haven't got a clue, though. Does it
really make much difference, as the board is fretless?

Oh yes, I'd have a fretless fingerboard for my guitar as well.

Some kind of neutral-third tuning would be nice, but the question
(wherever it was) did say JI.

Warm and friendly regards to the whole tuning community,

Graham

🔗Clark <caccola@xxxxxxxx.xxxx>

🔗Paul H. Erlich <PErlich@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx>

🔗Glen Peterson <Glen@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx>

> >[Glen] Each system carries it's own usage fee.
>
> [Carl] Excuse me?

Well, if you cut a Fritz Novak fanned fretboard, (a 12tet system where the
bass strings are longer than the trebble ones) you have to pay him $75. I
saw him, and a bunch of Luthiers who paid it at a convention a few months
ago in California. That's what patents are all about. I believe that
Catler and Lucy have similar arrangements.

> >Sitars have 2-3 playing strings and multiple drone strings.
> No reason you
> >couldn't play your guitar the same way, or even tune 4
> strings to act as
> >drones, and have the other 2 strings an octave apart
>
> I do stuff like that with my Martin. I want to have it
> refretted soon -- I
> might want the 22 srutis (in JI), but I'm worried that the
> commas will be to
> small to finger properly higher on the neck. Dante's guitar
> had a comma near
> the middle of the neck that was negotiable . . . Anyone?

Are you talking about the ~22 cent interval between almost every other note?
A 22 cent fret would be a cozy eight millimeters near the nut, a tight 4
near the octave, and nearly fretless part way up the second octave where the
frets begin to touch. In the second octave, you could choose the more
consonant ratio for each pair of frets or substitute a meantone fret halfway
between the two. Alternately, have a fret for the lower note, and bend up
to the higher one when you need it. There's a lot of bending in sitar
music, and not that many frets. Many sitars actually have less than 12
frets per octave, with gaps of 200 cents or more.

Also, you could consider tied-on metal frets on a fretless fingerboard like
a sitar, or just buying a sitar. They have them in the Want-Advertiser
almost every week. I sold mine a few months ago.

As an aside, if you have an old or high-end Martin, you should think about
altering a different instrument.

---
Glen Peterson
Peterson Stringed Instruments
30 Elm Street North Andover, MA 01845
(978) 975-1527
http://www.organicdesign.org/peterson

🔗PERLICH@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx

I wrote,

>> I do stuff like that with my Martin. I want to have it
>> refretted soon -- I
>> might want the 22 srutis (in JI), but I'm worried that the
>> commas will be to
>> small to finger properly higher on the neck. Dante's guitar
>> had a comma near
>> the middle of the neck that was negotiable . . . Anyone?

Glen Peterson wrote,

>Are you talking about the ~22 cent interval between almost every other note?
>A 22 cent fret would be a cozy eight millimeters near the nut, a tight 4
>near the octave, and nearly fretless part way up the second octave where the
>frets begin to touch.

Have you heard Eduardo Sabat-Garibaldi's 53-tone (scale of commas) guitarists?
They seems to be able to play cleanly and accurately. Maybe not in the second
octave. Eduardo?

>In the second octave, you could choose the more
>consonant ratio for each pair of frets or substitute a meantone fret halfway
>between the two. Alternately, have a fret for the lower note, and bend up
>to the higher one when you need it.

Choosing one (often the more consonant against a 1/1-3/2 drone) ratio for each
pair of frets corresponds to the solution called the "Modern Indian Gamut" as I
understand it, which I believe I've heard used by santoor (hammer-dulcimer)
players:
1/1 16/15 9/8 6/5 5/4 4/3 45/32 3/2 8/5 27/16 9/5 15/8 2/1.

Fleshing out your last suggestion:
If you place the frets at what is essentially a 12-tone Pythagorean scale with
schismatic (~2 cent) alterations:
1/1 256/243 10/9 32/27 5/4 4/3 45/32 3/2 128/81 5/3 16/9 15/8 2/1
which (ignoring the schisma) can be notated as the standard 12-tone Pythagorean
tuning, starting on C#:
C# D Eb E F F# G G# A Bb B C C#
(coincidence: the Indian drone is often near C#)
then the notes of the Modern Indian Gamut would all be reachable by a bend (you
can only bend upwards) of no more than a comma. Those Pythagorean notes plus the
MIG notes give you 18 srutis; the other 4, 81/64, 27/20, 729/512 (~=64/45), and
243/128 can also be played with a bend of no more than a comma.

>There's a lot of bending in sitar
>music, and not that many frets. Many sitars actually have less than 12
>frets per octave, with gaps of 200 cents or more.

Yes, and in most sitar music that I've heard the "microtones" are no more than
very detailed, ornamental bends. I'd love to learn to do that, but I'm also
interested in having some sort of drone/JI complement to my
22-tone-equal-temperament guitar, where many pitches could be produced quickly
and accurately without bending. Bending tends to mute one or more of the drone
strings on the guitar . . .

>Also, you could consider tied-on metal frets on a fretless fingerboard like
>a sitar, or just buying a sitar. They have them in the Want-Advertiser
>almost every week. I sold mine a few months ago.

. . . while a sitar doesn't have that problem. Hmmm.

>As an aside, if you have an old or high-end Martin, you should think about
>altering a different instrument.

It's a '93 D-1R. Although it's been my friend at countless campfires, I think
I'm ready to commit it to "dronality". I think I'd like to get a Gibson acoustic
for 12-tET stuff, to complement my favorite electrics: a '78 Les Paul Custom and
a '96 ES-135. The Martin sounds incredible with open-string chords, while Gibsons
seem to have the most consistent loveliness across their range.

John McLaughlin had an acoustic guitar with resonant strings that he used in
Shakti; know anything about that? (this may be gatting off-topic so reply
off-list)

-Paul

🔗D.Stearns <stearns@xxxxxxx.xxxx>

[Glen Peterson:]
> >There's a lot of bending in sitar music, and not that many frets.
Many sitars actually have less than 12 frets per octave, with gaps of
200 cents or more.

[Paul Erlich:]
> Yes, and in most sitar music that I've heard the "microtones" are no
more than very detailed, ornamental bends. I'd love to learn to do
that,

My friend Ken Rubenstein has a nice feel for (Indianesque) microtonal
pitch bends, and he does this exclusively on a 12e electric guitar
(mostly by way of the tremolo arm). Cuts 10 & 11 on his CD "Is This My
World That Hovers?" really show this to good effect.

He also just made a color coded plastic pitch template that he's going
to attach to the fingerboard of his new fretless acoustic guitar:

"This is my color coded system. I cut the template again using heavier
plastic. It came out really nice. There will wind up being three
different colors, denoting three different pitch "families", all
Pythagorean interrelated."

He played me a bit of this new guitar over the phone, and it sounded
great... no problems with the B & E strings sounding too blunt (which
is saying something as this is a fretless steel string acoustic after
all...), they really seemed to ring out.

Dan

PS - On the chance that anyone might be interested in Ken, or his CD,
he can be contacted by email at:

<Tellyrubes@aol.com>.

Or via the Pony Express at:

Wild Turkeyneck Records
45 Belmont Avenue, Suite 4C
Garfield, New Jersey
07026

🔗Glen Peterson <Glen@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx>

> [Paul Elrich]
> Have you heard Eduardo Sabat-Garibaldi's 53-tone (scale of
> commas) guitarists?

No. Is there a web site or could you list the ratios and cents?

> Choosing one (often the more consonant against a 1/1-3/2
> drone) ratio for each
> pair of frets corresponds to the solution called the "Modern
> Indian Gamut" as I
> understand it, which I believe I've heard used by santoor
> (hammer-dulcimer)
> players:
> 1/1 16/15 9/8 6/5 5/4 4/3 45/32 3/2 8/5 27/16 9/5 15/8 2/1.

When I listen to Indian music, it seems to me that they only use a subset of
about 12 pitches for any given rag. They retune their instrument, move
frets around, etc when they play a different rag. I think that Performers
play what sounds/feels good to them. They tune by ear, and it's an oral
tradition. The written theory that came about to explain it is probably
generally correct, but each performer probably has his own twist on it.

> and accurately without bending. Bending tends to mute one or
> more of the drone
> strings on the guitar . . .

Leave off a string or two, or cut the nut so that your drone strings are all
pulled way over to one side, just like a sitar. Also on a sitar, the high
melody string is in the middle of the neck so that there is plenty of room
to bend it down toward the player's hand (guitar strings are traditionally
bent up away from the player's hand).

If you really want to butcher the guitar to make it more Eastern, add a
banjo 5th string tuner to the side of the neck at the 12th fret for a really
high drone string.

> John McLaughlin had an acoustic guitar with resonant strings
> that he used in Shakti

Off topic? It's a microtonally enabled instrument is it not? A description
might inspire someone.

I've seen pictures. I believe it's got a scalloped 12tet fingerboard to
facilitate bending. 12 sympathetic strings cross the sound hole at an
angle. I can't hear the sympathetic strings on the recording, so they don't
seem too effective. They might just be getting lost in the drone. I think
sympathetic strings need to be parallel and close to the playing strings to
really resonate. Fred Carlson is a luthier who has done a lot of work with
sympathetic steel string guitars. I think his design makes more sense than
the guitar Mc Laughlin played:

http://www.beyondthetrees.com/sympb.htm

> My friend Ken Rubenstein has a nice feel for (Indianesque) microtonal
> pitch bends, and he does this exclusively on a 12e electric guitar
> (mostly by way of the tremolo arm)

There must be a way to put a tremolo on an acoustic guitar without killing
the sound... You've got me thinking...

> He also just made a color coded plastic pitch template that he's going
> to attach to the fingerboard of his new fretless acoustic guitar:

Are there pictures posted on a web site somewhere? This sounds really nice,
and very similar to the Partch guitars.

---
Glen Peterson
Peterson Stringed Instruments
30 Elm Street North Andover, MA 01845
(978) 975-1527
http://www.organicdesign.org/peterson

🔗David Beardsley <xouoxno@xxxx.xxxx>

Glen Peterson wrote:

> > John McLaughlin had an acoustic guitar with resonant strings
> > that he used in Shakti
>
> Off topic? It's a microtonally enabled instrument is it not? A description
> might inspire someone.
>
> I've seen pictures. I believe it's got a scalloped 12tet fingerboard to
> facilitate bending. 12 sympathetic strings cross the sound hole at an
> angle. I can't hear the sympathetic strings on the recording, so they don't
> seem too effective. They might just be getting lost in the drone. I think
> sympathetic strings need to be parallel and close to the playing strings to
> really resonate. Fred Carlson is a luthier who has done a lot of work with
> sympathetic steel string guitars. I think his design makes more sense than
> the guitar Mc Laughlin played:
>
> http://www.beyondthetrees.com/sympb.htm

Both Vishwa Mohan Bhatt and Debashish Bhattacharya both have
drone strings on their Hundustani Slide Guitars. I plainly see
in both videos and in photos that Bhattacharya's drone strings
run parallel along the neck. Liner notes about Bhatt indicate that
some of his run under the strings. I haven't seen a good photo yet,
but I haven't really searched.

--
* D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
* xouoxno@virtulink.com
*
* J u x t a p o s i t i o n N e t R a d i o
*
*
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm

🔗D.Stearns <stearns@xxxxxxx.xxxx>

🔗Canright, David <dcanright@xxx.xxxx.xxxx>

in TD 343, Message 7, William Sethares wrote:
[snip]
> I also want a JI-style fingerboard, and am having
> trouble visualizing what to do.
[snip]
> Theres two interacting issues here - how to (re)tune
> the strings and how the frets are placed.
> What kinds of solutions have people come up with,
> either in wood or thought?
>
In response:
This question prompted me to put some info about my fretting choices on my
web site; see:
http://www.mbay.net/~anne/david/frets/index.htm
(As an aside, note that my "blues" scale is the same as Kraig Grady's
"Centaur" scale, but with an added 21/16.)
Below is an excerpt concerning general issues; the site also shows diagrams
of 3 fingerboards.

I started with a classical guitar (Giannini) many years ago,
and wrote an article about that guitar. More recently (fewer years
ago), I bought a Martin 00016 steel-string guitar and an
interchangeable fingerboard kit from Mark Rankin, and hired a luthier
to make the modifications and the fingerboard blanks including a
standard (12-tone equal tempered) fingerboard. After some thought,
I fretted one fingerboard based on the idea of blues in A, using a
7-limit scale. Lately, I'm considering fretting another fingerboard to
get harmonic scales (8-16) on E and A.

Here are some issues that arose:

* How close can frets be?

On my Giannini, I chose frets straight across, and lots of 'em (37 in
the first octave). All the frets are playable. The closest frets are 4mm
apart, center to center, and the frets themselves are 2mm wide, so
the gap is a fret-width. With frets this close, one needs to be very
careful to get the fret heights uniform to insure playability and no buzz.
In my experience, fret separations of 6mm or more are relatively easy
to play. (The closest frets on my Martin fingerboard are 5mm, but the
upper note is not in the scale; see below.)

Of course, to play such frets requires precise finger placement, but no
extra pressure is required. Naturally, wider fret spacing makes for
easier playing, particularly when trying to play chords. Barred chords
with staggered frets can be tricky.

* Extra frets just above others are not a problem

In some cases on the Martin fingerboard, it was easiest to use a full
fret where the scale would call for a partial fret with a gap. Provided
this extra fret was just above (sharp) of the scale fret, the extra fret
did not get in the way. For example, the 3/2 fret gives a 27/16 on the
B (9/8) string, just (a comma) above the fret for 5/3. The extra
(27/16) fret does not make the usual fret (5/3) any harder to play,
and because it is so close, it hardly reduces the space to the fret
above (7/4), so that one is really no harder to play either.

This led me to the realization that an "alternate" note will not get in the
way provided it is a comma sharp of a "standard" note in the scale.
The alternate itself will be harder to play, but the rest of the scale
won't. (Unfortunately for my blues fingerboard, the alternate D is
21/16, which is below the standard D 4/3, so playing the standard D
4/3 requires particular attention.) I plan to take advantage of this in
future fingerboards, to throw in a few extra (sharp) notes that I can
get when I really want them.

* The open strings don't have to be tuned to the scale

I am pretty slow about tuning the strings, in part because I am very
particular about getting it as right as I can, to my ear. (I tune by
harmonics, and it works very well for me. Even when I tune
tempered, I do it based on beats in the harmonics.) In contrast,
changing fingerboards is pretty quick and easy. So for me, the idea of
using one tuning for more than one fingerboard seems attractive.

But a natural approach is to tune the strings to the scale. For those
that do a lot with open strings, this makes good sense. (I'm not a very
good guitarist, but I like to play melodies all over the neck and don't
always use open strings.) Of course, the choices of scale and string
tuning determine fret positions, which affects the playability (and
navigability too!).

For my first interchangeable fingerboard, I used standard EADGBE
tuning, but all pure fourths (3/2 1/1 4/3 16/9 9/8 3/2, to A440), even
though the G in the scale is 7/4, not 16/9. This means I can never
play an open G with a fretted G (unless I'm into ugly). But had I
instead chosen an open G 7/4, the frets on the G string would all have
to go up a bit, resulting in many more partial frets for just the one
string. Not only would the fingerboard be harder to make, but a bit
harder to play as well. Having all my open fourths perfect makes the
frets simpler, and when they go straight across several strings I know
those fourths are perfect too, which helps in understanding which
frets are which in the scale. (I may use the same tuning for my next
fingerboard as well, for harmonic scales 8-16.)

Using "dofrets.eps" to visualize the frets helps in exploring the
possibilities...

David Canright http://www.mbay.net/~anne/david/

🔗Paul H. Erlich <PErlich@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx>

🔗Drew Skyfyre <drew_skyfyre@xxxxx.xxxx>

> There must be a way to put a tremolo on an acoustic guitar without killing
> the sound... You've got me thinking...

I KNOW I read about this once in Guitar Player. Maybe I'll dig through and
see if I can find it.

> Fred Carlson is a luthier who has done a lot of work with
> sympathetic steel string guitars. I think his design makes more sense than
> the guitar Mc Laughlin played:
>
> http://www.beyondthetrees.com/sympb.htm

I remember seeing a picture of one in Guitar Player. Too bad GP hasn't been
more ambitious in promoting the wild side of guitar ! They have featured
some intriguing instruments now & then though, like Holdsworth with the neat
hollow-body, sound-hole equiped Steinberger style axe and the occasional
"experimental guitar" spreads.

>Liner notes about Bhatt indicate that some of his run under the strings.
This *could* be done like a sitar : hollow out the neck & run sympathetic
strings under the frets. Hey isn't that how Carlson does it ? Could be a
pain keeping such an instrument *in tune* though :-)

Using graphite/composite necks is one way to have a much more stable guitar.
I have a bunch of related links & info for on a web page that some of u may
find interesting : http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Palais/8151/xgtgear.html

- Drew

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

🔗Glen Peterson <Glen@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx>

> From: "Paul H. Erlich" <PErlich@Acadian-Asset.com>
> One would not adjust the zero fret. The reason for
> adjusting the nut is
> that is usually quite a bit higher than the frets.

True, but another important effect is that the nut holds the string more
firmly than your finger does. You can play an open string much louder than
a fretted one and make it buzz that much easier, so you have to cut the nut
higher to compensate. Unfortunately, every action adjustment effects
intonation.

I don't think the zero fret has this problem, though I've never tested it.
I think one of my guinea pig guitars has a zero fret. Here piggy-piggy...
He he he...

> (bridge position only). According to Steve Vai, Buzz Feiten's system
> involves a separate nut, bridge, and tuning adjustment for
> each string.

I've heard samples and it does help. I also understand why people don't do
it more often. You have to adjust the intonation at the saddle to
compensate for the nut, and vice/versa. Then if the string height changes
at the nut or saddle, you have to do it all over again. Heaven forbid you
should ever want to use a different gauge or brand of strings!

There are so many other reasons guitars don't play in tune: strings
stretching, sticky nut slots, humidity or temperature changes, careless
tuning, heavy picking, heavy fretting, just to name a few. For these
reasons, I haven't done much nut compensation in the past, but you are
inspiring me to do some experiments, come up with measurements, and maybe
make nut compensation (or at least partial compensation for average strings)
a standard feature.

> From: John Starrett <jstarret@math.cudenver.edu>
> A zero fret is a fret placed where the nut would
> normally be...
> With a system like this (I believe some
> Rickenbacker guitars used a zero fret...Glen?)

Yes some Rickenbackers, a bunch of cheap instruments (probably why the zero
fret is frowned upon in many circles), and even some really nice Gretch
guitars all have zero frets.

> With perfect relief
> profile, we expect the increase in pitch to be greatest at
> the octave

I've never heard a luthier talk about relief vs tuning. Everyone seems to
set it for the lowest action without buzz. Low action also minimizes the
effect of relief on tuning. Maybe that's why.

> From: "Drew Skyfyre" <drew_skyfyre@yahoo.com>
> This *could* be done like a sitar : hollow out the neck & run
> sympathetic
> strings under the frets. Hey isn't that how Carlson does it ?

Sitars have a hollow neck with tuners inside, and a concave fingerboard that
the strings run on top of. Carlson uses a channel inside the neck for the
sympathetic strings. The tuners are all on the headstock. Changing
sympathetic strings on a Sitar requires a small metal hook and a lot of
patience. I don't know how you get the strings through the tiny channel in
Carlson's necks without them tangling.

> Could be a
> pain keeping such an instrument *in tune* though :-)

Indeed. In Indian music it is common practice to spend several minutes
tuning in the middle of a piece, and 10 minutes or more tuning between
pieces. (pieces are usually longer than 20 minutes, sometimes lasting for
hours.)

> http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Palais/8151/xgtgear.html

Great links page!

FlexiFrets are COOL! All you folks who wrote asking about moveable frets
should check this out:

http://www.servtech.com/~dwilder/bear-meadow/flexifrets.html

I have not tried this system, but it looks like a great idea!

---
Glen Peterson
Peterson Stringed Instruments
30 Elm Street North Andover, MA 01845
(978) 975-1527
http://www.organicdesign.org/peterson

🔗Glen Peterson <Glen@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx>

> From: "Wim Hoogewerf" <wim.hoogewerf@fnac.net>
> Walter Vogt showed me his measurements in 1979 when I came to
> his workshop...
> a specially
> designed experimental instrument on which he could actually
> measure the
> distance from the fret to the nut (any string, any position)

Did you see this instrument? Could you describe it?

> Goltermann. Several sets of the same classical strings - they were all
> Augustine Blue - gave different results at every measurement.

Using multiple sets of strings gives credibility to his results. This is
great stuff! The chart was very interesting.

> One of these
> results occured in his publicity flyer for the fine-tunable
> guitar with
> moveable frets he later devellopped.

Tell me more about these moveable frets. Many people have emailed me about
things like this. Some even mentioned the crescent shaped frets. If you
can compensate at the nut and bridge, do you still need to compensate every
fret?

---
Glen Peterson
Peterson Stringed Instruments
30 Elm Street North Andover, MA 01845
(978) 975-1527
http://www.organicdesign.org/peterson

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