Hermode

I have a question about Werner Mohrlok's hermode tuning:

What is the idea behind the sum of the retunings being zero?

I don't understand how this is the thing that makes it compatible
with equal temperament.

Kalle

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Kalle Aho" <kalleaho@m...> wrote:

> I have a question about Werner Mohrlok's hermode tuning:
>
> What is the idea behind the sum of the retunings being zero?
>
> I don't understand how this is the thing that makes it compatible
> with equal temperament.
>
>
> Kalle

This idea is the same one John deLaubenfels used in his
early "JIRelay". The idea is that retuning motions can be minimized
in a real-time retuning (one that has no idea of what's coming next)
by keeping all the notes as close as possible to a fixed tuning
compatible with all possible inputs (for normal everyday keyboard
music, this is 12-equal). The sum of the retunings being zero at any
given time prevents any given retuning from being too large, which is
important because otherwise, that same note may obtain an equal and
opposite retuning in the next chord, and the net retuning motion will
thus be quite large and objectionable. Another approach would be to
minimize the maximum retuning, but this would assume that two
simultaneous large retuning motions is no worse than one, and
apparently Werner's ears have convinced him otherwise.

Sorry -- pressed for time right now,
Paul

> -----Urspr�ngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Kalle Aho [mailto:kalleaho@mappi.helsinki.fi]
> Gesendet: Dienstag, 9. M�rz 2004 21:37
> An: tuning@yahoogroups.com
> Betreff: [tuning] Hermode
>

> I have a question about Werner Mohrlok's hermode tuning:
>
> What is the idea behind the sum of the retunings being zero?
>
> I don't understand how this is the thing that makes it compatible
> with equal temperament.
>
>
> Kalle

Hi Kalle,

I could answer here by a lot of words, but I could only
repeat things which are described at our websites.

The best way:
Go to our website:
www.hermode.com
(It is written in "flash")

Go to the historical chapter and go in this chapter until
the end: "Software driven tunings"
There will you find different ideas in programme-controlled
self-correcting tuning.
All described with diagrams by one and the same musical
example. The first three ideas have been pubished by other
persons ore companies The forth is "hermode tuning".
I hope with these diagrams you will understand our
the "hermode tuning" idea immediately.

If not or if you will have additional questions:
Please ask again and I will answer them.

Best

Werner

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Werner Mohrlok" <wmohrlok@h...> wrote:
>
> > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> > Von: Kalle Aho [mailto:kalleaho@m...]
> > Gesendet: Dienstag, 9. März 2004 21:37
> > An: tuning@yahoogroups.com
> > Betreff: [tuning] Hermode
> >
>
> > I have a question about Werner Mohrlok's hermode tuning:
> >
> > What is the idea behind the sum of the retunings being zero?
> >
> > I don't understand how this is the thing that makes it
compatible
> > with equal temperament.
> >
> >
> > Kalle
>
> Hi Kalle,
>
> I could answer here by a lot of words, but I could only
> repeat things which are described at our websites.
>
> The best way:
> Go to our website:
> www.hermode.com
> (It is written in "flash")
>
> Go to the historical chapter and go in this chapter until
> the end: "Software driven tunings"
> There will you find different ideas in programme-controlled
> self-correcting tuning.
> All described with diagrams by one and the same musical
> example. The first three ideas have been pubished by other
> persons ore companies The forth is "hermode tuning".
> I hope with these diagrams you will understand our
> the "hermode tuning" idea immediately.
>
> If not or if you will have additional questions:
> Please ask again and I will answer them.
>
> Best
>
> Werner

Thanks to Paul and vielen Dank für Werner!

Now when I think about it I realize that there are three choices for
a major chord to progress to another 5-limit consonant chord so that
only one note changes. For example C-major chord can thus progress to
A minor, C minor or E minor chord. Only by setting the sum of the
retunings in a chord to zero can we minimize the amount retuning
motion in these progressions, correct?

Kalle

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Kalle Aho" <kalleaho@m...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Werner Mohrlok" <wmohrlok@h...>
wrote:
> >
> > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> > > Von: Kalle Aho [mailto:kalleaho@m...]
> > > Gesendet: Dienstag, 9. März 2004 21:37
> > > An: tuning@yahoogroups.com
> > > Betreff: [tuning] Hermode
> > >
> >
> > > I have a question about Werner Mohrlok's hermode tuning:
> > >
> > > What is the idea behind the sum of the retunings being zero?
> > >
> > > I don't understand how this is the thing that makes it
> compatible
> > > with equal temperament.
> > >
> > >
> > > Kalle
> >
> > Hi Kalle,
> >
> > I could answer here by a lot of words, but I could only
> > repeat things which are described at our websites.
> >
> > The best way:
> > Go to our website:
> > www.hermode.com
> > (It is written in "flash")
> >
> > Go to the historical chapter and go in this chapter until
> > the end: "Software driven tunings"
> > There will you find different ideas in programme-controlled
> > self-correcting tuning.
> > All described with diagrams by one and the same musical
> > example. The first three ideas have been pubished by other
> > persons ore companies The forth is "hermode tuning".
> > I hope with these diagrams you will understand our
> > the "hermode tuning" idea immediately.
> >
> > If not or if you will have additional questions:
> > Please ask again and I will answer them.
> >
> > Best
> >
> > Werner
>
> Thanks to Paul and vielen Dank für Werner!
>
> Now when I think about it I realize that there are three choices
for
> a major chord to progress to another 5-limit consonant chord so
that
> only one note changes. For example C-major chord can thus progress
to
> A minor, C minor or E minor chord. Only by setting the sum of the
> retunings in a chord to zero can we minimize the amount retuning
> motion in these progressions, correct?

And of course I should've added all the progressions where two notes
change but the conclusion remains, right?

Kalle

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Kalle Aho" <kalleaho@m...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Kalle Aho" <kalleaho@m...> wrote:
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Werner Mohrlok" <wmohrlok@h...>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> > > > Von: Kalle Aho [mailto:kalleaho@m...]
> > > > Gesendet: Dienstag, 9. März 2004 21:37
> > > > An: tuning@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Betreff: [tuning] Hermode
> > > >
> > >
> > > > I have a question about Werner Mohrlok's hermode tuning:
> > > >
> > > > What is the idea behind the sum of the retunings being
zero?
> > > >
> > > > I don't understand how this is the thing that makes it
> > compatible
> > > > with equal temperament.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Kalle
> > >
> > > Hi Kalle,
> > >
> > > I could answer here by a lot of words, but I could only
> > > repeat things which are described at our websites.
> > >
> > > The best way:
> > > Go to our website:
> > > www.hermode.com
> > > (It is written in "flash")
> > >
> > > Go to the historical chapter and go in this chapter until
> > > the end: "Software driven tunings"
> > > There will you find different ideas in programme-controlled
> > > self-correcting tuning.
> > > All described with diagrams by one and the same musical
> > > example. The first three ideas have been pubished by other
> > > persons ore companies The forth is "hermode tuning".
> > > I hope with these diagrams you will understand our
> > > the "hermode tuning" idea immediately.
> > >
> > > If not or if you will have additional questions:
> > > Please ask again and I will answer them.
> > >
> > > Best
> > >
> > > Werner
> >
> > Thanks to Paul and vielen Dank für Werner!
> >
> > Now when I think about it I realize that there are three choices
> for
> > a major chord to progress to another 5-limit consonant chord so
> that
> > only one note changes. For example C-major chord can thus
progress
> to
> > A minor, C minor or E minor chord. Only by setting the sum of the
> > retunings in a chord to zero can we minimize the amount retuning
> > motion in these progressions, correct?
>
> And of course I should've added all the progressions where two
notes
> change but the conclusion remains, right?

I've done a little more thinking and I think this can't be right. No
matter how I choose the retunings so that the resulting chord is just
and given 12-equal temperament the maximum retuning motion is always
about 14 cents.

So why exactly are those retunings +4, -10 and +6 cents and not for
example +6, -8 and +8 which have a smaller maximum deviation from
equal temperament? Why must they add to zero?

Kalle

-----Urspr�ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Kalle Aho [mailto:kalleaho@mappi.helsinki.fi]
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 10. M�rz 2004 14:27
An: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Betreff: [tuning] Re: Hermode

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Kalle Aho" <kalleaho@m...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Kalle Aho" <kalleaho@m...> wrote:
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Werner Mohrlok" <wmohrlok@h...>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > -----Urspr�ngliche Nachricht-----
> > > > Von: Kalle Aho [mailto:kalleaho@m...]
> > > > Gesendet: Dienstag, 9. M�rz 2004 21:37
> > > > An: tuning@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Betreff: [tuning] Hermode
> > > >
> > >
> > > > I have a question about Werner Mohrlok's hermode tuning:
> > > >
> > > > What is the idea behind the sum of the retunings being
zero?
> > > >
> > > > I don't understand how this is the thing that makes it
> > compatible
> > > > with equal temperament.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Kalle
> > >
> > > Hi Kalle,
> > >
> > > I could answer here by a lot of words, but I could only
> > > repeat things which are described at our websites.
> > >
> > > The best way:
> > > Go to our website:
> > > www.hermode.com
> > > (It is written in "flash")
> > >
> > > Go to the historical chapter and go in this chapter until
> > > the end: "Software driven tunings"
> > > There will you find different ideas in programme-controlled
> > > self-correcting tuning.
> > > All described with diagrams by one and the same musical
> > > example. The first three ideas have been pubished by other
> > > persons ore companies The forth is "hermode tuning".
> > > I hope with these diagrams you will understand our
> > > the "hermode tuning" idea immediately.
> > >
> > > If not or if you will have additional questions:
> > > Please ask again and I will answer them.
> > >
> > > Best
> > >
> > > Werner
> >
> > Thanks to Paul and vielen Dank f�r Werner!
> >
> > Now when I think about it I realize that there are three choices
> for
> > a major chord to progress to another 5-limit consonant chord so
> that
> > only one note changes. For example C-major chord can thus
progress
> to
> > A minor, C minor or E minor chord. Only by setting the sum of the
> > retunings in a chord to zero can we minimize the amount retuning
> > motion in these progressions, correct?
>
> > And of course I should've added all the progressions where two
notes
> > change but the conclusion remains, right?
>
> I've done a little more thinking and I think this can't be right. No
> matter how I choose the retunings so that the resulting chord is just
> and given 12-equal temperament the maximum retuning motion is always
> about 14 cents.
>
> So why exactly are those retunings +4, -10 and +6 cents and not for
> example +6, -8 and +8 which have a smaller maximum deviation from
> equal temperament? Why must they add to zero?
>
> Kalle

Hi Kalle,

I feel that you now have understood the HMT position idea and
why it is done in this way.
The "Zero Sum" is only the default position of the frequencies,
in living music the frequency positions oftenly have to be moved
upwards or downwars in order to equalize the positions in order to
avoid audible retuning steps. With our most smooth program
variation we limit the retuning steps to 3 Cents if any possible.
On the other hand the typical HMT idea is to allow the movement of
frequencies even for ringing notes as soon as they change their
harmonic function, but to move them by inaudible steps.
As a result of this the effective calculated frequencies drift
sometimes upwards or downwards. Nevertheless the "Zero Sum" is
the default and the program always tries to drive back to the
default positions.

Now to your question by the example of a major chord:
Why positioning the frequencies to root = +4, third = -10 and
fifth = +6 Cents deviation to ET instead to +6, - 8, +8 Cents.
Two reasons:
1. The human ear realizes the sound of the root more
than the sound of the third and in this way the position
of the root will be postioned closer to ET.
2. The "Zero Sum" seemed us to be a nice idea for a new
model of program controlled living temperament.

Setting the frequencies of a major chord according to your
proposal wouldn't bring an audible difference. It would be too the
HMT idea, which is:
"Not to fix any note to ET, but to position them in default
in a way which will reduce the retuning steps of notes when
changing their harmonic function and - on the other hand - allowing
retuning steps for such notes but holding the retuning steps as
small as possible".

Best

Werner