Just intonation and equal temperaments

Hello -

Having listened to music in different tunings intently over considerable
time, I personally have come to the conclusion that the psychological
effects of (1) highly consonant music approaching just intonation music
and (2) somewhat consonant, somewhat dissonant music such as 12-equal
temperament generally comes across as being with other equal
temperament musics also being somewhat consonant, somewhat dissonant,
some being more consonant than 12-equal but still slightly dissonant and
others being less consonant than 12-equal, again, the psychological effects
of (1) and (2) are, I think, somewhat different, although there is some
overlap of course.

If the equal temperament music is well performed on instruments having
pleasing, not overly bright timbres, I believe it often has a certain "easy
listening"
quality which can be soothing and conducive to relaxed creativity, etc.
Music in
near just intonation I find to be more demanding that I stop what I'm doing to
listen to it. I find it more emotionally arousing and gripping. People
have told me that they like to play such music to wake up to. There are
situations where a person might definitely prefer to have equal temperament
music playing, even though in other situations they would prefer music
in more consonant tuning.

What I've said here leaves the whole matter of the myriad different flavors
of
slight dissonance provided by different equal temperaments and by the vast
number
of non equal temperament slightly dissonant tunings unaddressed, but I'm
trying to
say something constructive in this area, because I've seen people expressing
such
diametrically opposed views about differently tuned performances that it's
hard
to believe until one sees it.

I will say, however, that I have heard disparaging comments about just
intonation, which I've been working with since 1980, to the effect that it
really
isn't all that much different than equal temperament and that the real future
of
music lies in the more far out equal temperaments. I believe that these
remarks
are completely unfounded and that consonance is a key psychological parameter
in
music which for many people greatly affects its psychological impact,
regardless
of the cent values of various differences in pitch involved. I believe we
need to
be open about all these matters and try to really understand the truth of what
is
happening neurophysiologically and psychologically, and although fascinating
research in these areas is beginning to be done, there is a great deal which
is as
yet not understood, and there are great differences between individuals and
even
between different states in the same individual at different times.

Dave Hill, La Mesa, CA

Dave Hill wrote:

>Music in near just intonation I find to be more demanding that I stop what
I'm doing to listen to it. I find it more emotionally arousing and gripping.
People have told me that they like to play such music to wake up to.

Would this also apply for "music in near just intonation" that one is not
personally fond of? Would a Grindcore band, say Napalm Death* be more
demanding, more emotionally arousing and gripping� music to wake up to, were
their music rendered in near just intonation?

>I will say, however, that I have heard disparaging comments about just
intonation, which I've been working with since 1980, to the effect that it
really isn't all that much different than equal temperament and that the
real future of music lies in the more far out equal temperaments.

Is this not the same sort of - intonation first music second - argument? One
that ignores all non-vested contingencies and marches ITS music straight
through all the other related workings of the world?

>there is a great deal which is as yet not understood, and there are great
differences between individuals and even between different states in the
same individual at different times.

Amen.

Dan Stearns

*I�m using an example like Napalm Death in an attempt to make a point, not
to assume what particular sort of music one would either like or dislike�
But this argument is more or less conditional to the assumption that
intonation and music are not the same� (And that "not the same" never said:
therefore mutually exclusive�)

Dave i must agree with you there is a time and a place for every type of music
eqtemps/Ji. And i constantly hear that JI is out of tune. or sounds crappy at first--or
you cannot modulate...But fundamentally having played several temps before moving into
Just, I agree that the intimate immensity of simply two intervals in just intonation(to
me) say the simplest--1/1 & 7/4 or 1/1 & 3/2...to be held for a long time... are much
more psychologically and neurologically not to mention politically more
significant(again to me) than any amount of equal temp. What i think we are seeing w/
expanded intricate tetism is a transitional period for the Acousto-mathematics
unwilling to immediately drop what they have spent so much energy on and devote to a
new "system" Which is really much simpler and accessible to common folks who desire a
purity not only in music but in their culture,society and psychological relationships
to their fellow women and men.Barbara Hero has done extensive work w/ pschological
affects of the Lambdoma matrix and has about 20 years of research on it available at
http://www.lambdoma.com

Ascend11@aol.com wrote:

> From: Ascend11@aol.com
>
> Hello -
>
> Dave Hill, La Mesa, CA
>
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I think the main point is if Napalm death or Carcass or The German Shepherds put
a parenthesis after every song saying what temperment it was in ex; Cadaveric
Incubator of Endoparasites (in 31-tet)
Would it make a big difference?Or would it serve to posture a higher "purpose"
of the song.
Or would it open up some teens minds about different tunings?
Dan i think we can go round and round about this.
Pat

"D. Stearns" wrote:

> From: "D. Stearns" <stearns@capecod.net>
>
> Dave Hill wrote:
>
> Dan Stearns
>
> *I�m using an example like Napalm Death in an attempt to make a point, not
> to assume what particular sort of music one would either like or dislike�
> But this argument is more or less conditional to the assumption that
> intonation and music are not the same� (And that "not the same" never said:
> therefore mutually exclusive�)
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription
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> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> email. Send an empty email to one of these addresses:
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>> Dave i must agree with you there is a time and a place for every type of
music
eqtemps/Ji. And i constantly hear that JI is out of tune. or sounds crappy
at first--or
you cannot modulate...But fundamentally having played several temps before
moving into
Just, I agree that the intimate immensity of simply two intervals in just
intonation(to
me) say the simplest--1/1 & 7/4 or 1/1 & 3/2...to be held for a long
time... are much
more psychologically and neurologically not to mention politically more
significant(again to me) than any amount of equal temp. What i think we are
seeing w/
expanded intricate tetism is a transitional period for the
Acousto-mathematics
unwilling to immediately drop what they have spent so much energy on and
devote to a
new "system" Which is really much simpler and accessible to common folks
who desire a
purity not only in music but in their culture,society and psychological
relationships
to their fellow women and men.Barbara Hero has done extensive work w/
pschological
affects of the Lambdoma matrix and has about 20 years of research on it
available at
http://www.lambdoma.com

What strikes me about equal temperaments compared to just intonation, aside
from the beating, is that ETs have a limited set of tones to work with,
defined by the division of the octave. The idea of just intonation allows
for a potentially infinite variety of tones and tonal relationships that
can be understood in terms of ratios. But both seem to be simply ways of
quantifying sounds, sounds which ultimately have a form outside any
description that math or words can provide. Statements such as "I agree
that the intimate immensity of simply two intervals in just intonation (to
me) say the simplest--1/1 & 7/4 or 1/1 & 3/2...to be held for a long
time... are much more psychologically and neurologically not to mention
politically more significant (again to me) than any amount of equal temp."
seem outrageous to me. Anytime someone says that one thing is better or
more significant than another (psychologically, neurologically and
politically?), it sounds like someone is selling something. "...simpler
and accessible to common folks who desire a purity not only in music but in
their culture, society and psychological relationships to their fellow
women and men" - sounds like political rhetoric (I know what the common
people need, these simple folk need pure intervals - this will benefit them
neurologically!) Perhaps you can elaborate.

Yes brian i shall
we have a prevalent democraticly tuned system "the republic" so t speak were
each man takes not his exact due-JI-He surrenders something for the sake of
"harmony" at first a good idea but eventually an elite is established then
corrupts. The problem with JI systems historically is that they allow for any
number of intervals-yes but unlimited then sink into
obscurity-Atlantis--therefore a limit must be used or cap -whichever is
comfy--and explored to find a lost city of magic & gold of fables and whatnot.
I seek not to sell anything. "you can point the way but you can't carry them".
All of these topics are explored deeply in Ernie MCclains books
Pat

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from Diogenes who lived with a pack of dogs which as we know have better hearing
than Plato

Share a bowl of fruit with Plato and he'll eat them all!

Plato winces when I track dust across his rugs: he knows that I'm walking on his
vanity

Plato's philosophy is an endless conversation.

I've seen Plato's cups and table, but not his cupness and tableness

Beg a cup of wine from Plato and he will send you a whole jar. He does not give
as he is asked, nor answer as he is questioned

When Plato said that if I'd gone to the Sicilian court as I was invited, I
wouldn't have to wash lettuce for a living, I replied that if he washed lettuce
for a living he wouldn't have had to go to the Sicilian Court.

Patrick Pagano wrote:

> From: Patrick Pagano <ppagano@bellsouth.net>
>
> Yes brian i shall
> we have a prevalent democraticly tuned system "the republic" so t speak were
> each man takes not his exact due-JI-He surrenders something for the sake of
> "harmony" at first a good idea but eventually an elite is established then
> corrupts. The problem with JI systems historically is that they allow for any
> number of intervals-yes but unlimited then sink into
> obscurity-Atlantis--therefore a limit must be used or cap -whichever is
> comfy--and explored to find a lost city of magic & gold of fables and whatnot.
> I seek not to sell anything. "you can point the way but you can't carry them".
> All of these topics are explored deeply in Ernie MCclains books
> Pat

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
www.anaphoria.com

>> Yes brian i shall
we have a prevalent democraticly tuned system "the republic" so t speak
were
each man takes not his exact due-JI-He surrenders something for the sake of
"harmony" at first a good idea but eventually an elite is established then
corrupts. The problem with JI systems historically is that they allow for
any
number of intervals-yes but unlimited then sink into
obscurity-Atlantis--therefore a limit must be used or cap -whichever is
comfy--and explored to find a lost city of magic & gold of fables and
whatnot.
I seek not to sell anything. "you can point the way but you can't carry
them".
All of these topics are explored deeply in Ernie MCclains books
Pat

I don't quite understand your reply, but I guess I don't see why JI is
inherently better than another system and that something is "surrendered"
for the sake of harmony. When I'm listening to music I don't give a damn
about the theory behind the tuning. And I'm not sure why I should. I don't
think that certain intervals or tuning systems have greater purity than
others, and I don't see how we simple common folk would benefit from
someone else's idea of purity in music, let alone culture, society or
psychological relationships.

Brian
you are entitled to your opinion
and how you listen to music is your trip
you asked me to elaborate and i did
I am not talking whos better whos best but what is.

> rmal@onelist.com - switch your subscription to normal mode.

>> Brian
you are entitled to your opinion
and how you listen to music is your trip
you asked me to elaborate and i did
I am not talking whos better whos best but what is.

Pat, I was just trying to get you to defend your statement but that's fair
enough. Can anyone explain to me how purely tuned intervals actually
physically affect people differently? From my own personal experience,
after listening to an Indian classical singer in concert for three hours, I
felt simply great and I'm not exactly sure why. One other thought on JI
and ET: Doesn't ET in some ways facilitate people playing music together,
such as jazz (but also any kind of music), and isn't this as important to
music and life as having purely tuned intervals?

Equal temperament was intended for piano for the most part and yes it does
facillitate Jazz and the like for cross cultural exchange but my real point
that I am making is that JI is purer tuning plain and simple the hindus tune
their Sa(C) really our Bminus to 240 hz=Fundamental of 60 hertz time is
measured in 60 second intervals minutes....The electric current of the united
states vibrates on a 60 cycle Base and the Famous Pitagoras stole pure tuning
from the Babylonians who used a Base 60 math. Temperament is only that
"Tempered" everything slightly out of tune. So my tru point is that yes the
manipulation of the sonic architecture has affected the entire entrainment rate
of the Globe. You feel so wonderful after a Raag concert because they are using
an ancient tuning.And there is a physical/mental and neurological benefit to be
derived from pure tuning.

Brian Carlson wrote:

> From: "Brian Carlson" <bxcarl3@uswest.com>
>
> >> Brian
> you are entitled to your opinion
> and how you listen to music is your trip
> you asked me to elaborate and i did
> I am not talking whos better whos best but what is.
>
> Pat, I was just trying to get you to defend your statement but that's fair
> enough. Can anyone explain to me how purely tuned intervals actually
> physically affect people differently? From my own personal experience,
> after listening to an Indian classical singer in concert for three hours, I
> felt simply great and I'm not exactly sure why. One other thought on JI
> and ET: Doesn't ET in some ways facilitate people playing music together,
> such as jazz (but also any kind of music), and isn't this as important to
> music and life as having purely tuned intervals?
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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