the missing monz

sorry to be gone so long, folks. i gave a presentation
at MahlerFest XVII in Boulder, Colorado on Saturday the 17th

http://mahlerfest.org/symposium.htm

i'm still having a hard time coming down off my Mahler-high
and returning to "normal life". wow, what an experience
it was.

anyway, just thought i should post something for those
who were wondering what happened to me. i haven't read
anything on any of the tuning lists for well over a week now.

-monz

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:

> sorry to be gone so long, folks. i gave a presentation
> at MahlerFest XVII in Boulder, Colorado on Saturday the 17th

Did my CD get to you on time? I never got an ack.

hi Gene,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
>
> > sorry to be gone so long, folks. i gave a presentation
> > at MahlerFest XVII in Boulder, Colorado on Saturday the 17th
>
> Did my CD get to you on time? I never got an ack.

so sorry about that. yes, i got it. consider this an ack.
thanks very much.

the CD i used in my presentation was the bifrost version
... so your microtonal retuning of my MIDI Mahler is the one
everyone heard!

i was incredibly busy the week before leaving for the festival.
that's why i neglected to ack.

-monz

monz wrote:

>hi Gene,
>
>
>--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:
> >
>>--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
>>
>> >>
>>>sorry to be gone so long, folks. i gave a presentation
>>>at MahlerFest XVII in Boulder, Colorado on Saturday the 17th
>>> >>>
>>Did my CD get to you on time? I never got an ack.
>> >>
>
>so sorry about that. yes, i got it. consider this an ack.
>thanks very much.
>
>the CD i used in my presentation was the bifrost version
>... so your microtonal retuning of my MIDI Mahler is the one
>everyone heard!
>
>i was incredibly busy the week before leaving for the festival.
>that's why i neglected to ack.
> >
Did you credit him for it, at least in the program notes?

--
* David Beardsley
* microtonal guitar
* http://biink.com/db

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:

> the CD i used in my presentation was the bifrost version
> ... so your microtonal retuning of my MIDI Mahler is the one
> everyone heard!

If you mean the new version on the CD, that is all over the tuning
map; the sections go

Mah1 bifrost F#

Mah2 bifrost A

Mah3 grail D

Mah 4 cauldron C

Mah 5 asbru D

Mah 6 grail D

Mah 7 top meantone D

If you used it I assume it met with your approval, so I'll upload an
ogg for it.

hi David,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, David Beardsley <db@b...> wrote:
> monz wrote:
>
> >hi Gene,
> >
> >
> >--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...>
wrote:
> >
> >
> >>--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>sorry to be gone so long, folks. i gave a presentation
> >>>at MahlerFest XVII in Boulder, Colorado on Saturday the 17th
> >>>
> >>>
> >>Did my CD get to you on time? I never got an ack.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >so sorry about that. yes, i got it. consider this an ack.
> >thanks very much.
> >
> >the CD i used in my presentation was the bifrost version
> >... so your microtonal retuning of my MIDI Mahler is the one
> >everyone heard!
> >
> >i was incredibly busy the week before leaving for the festival.
> >that's why i neglected to ack.
> >
> >
> Did you credit him for it, at least in the program notes?

"bifrost retuning by Gene Ward Smith" right in the middle of
the CD box insert, and "retuned into Bifrost 12-tone
circulating well-temperament by Gene Ward Smith" on page 15
of the score i published with the CD.

-monz

hi Gene,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
>
> > the CD i used in my presentation was the bifrost version
> > ... so your microtonal retuning of my MIDI Mahler is the one
> > everyone heard!
>
> If you mean the new version on the CD, that is all over the tuning
> map;

aha! i noticed that the tunings sounded *quite* different
from the old bifrost tuning!

> the sections go
>
> Mah1 bifrost F#
>
> Mah2 bifrost A
>
> Mah3 grail D
>
> Mah 4 cauldron C
>
> Mah 5 asbru D
>
> Mah 6 grail D
>
> Mah 7 top meantone D
>
> If you used it I assume it met with your approval, so
> I'll upload an ogg for it.

no, i ended up using the old one, because there are a
few glitches in the ogg files and i had already mended
the old file the best i could.

so you're saying that you used a different tuning for
each of my 7 MIDI-files into which i broke the movement?
crazy.

if you really want to continue experimenting on this
with me, i'd like to tune it according to the actual
key (*not* simply the key-signatures used by Mahler --
the harmony of this piece is *much* more fluid than those!)
of each little section. that would require a detailed
harmonic analysis, but i'll eventually be doing that
anyway, and including it in the second edition of my score.

-monz

hi Gene,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:

> hi Gene,
>
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...>
wrote:
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
> >
> > > the CD i used in my presentation was the bifrost version
> > > ... so your microtonal retuning of my MIDI Mahler is the one
> > > everyone heard!
> >
> > If you mean the new version on the CD, that is all over the tuning
> > map;
>
>
> aha! i noticed that the tunings sounded *quite* different
> from the old bifrost tuning!
>
>
>
> > the sections go
> >
> > Mah1 bifrost F#
> >
> > Mah2 bifrost A
> >
> > Mah3 grail D
> >
> > Mah 4 cauldron C
> >
> > Mah 5 asbru D
> >
> > Mah 6 grail D
> >
> > Mah 7 top meantone D
> >
> > If you used it I assume it met with your approval, so
> > I'll upload an ogg for it.
>
>
> no, i ended up using the old one, because there are a
> few glitches in the ogg files and i had already mended
> the old file the best i could.
>
> so you're saying that you used a different tuning for
> each of my 7 MIDI-files into which i broke the movement?
> crazy.
>
> if you really want to continue experimenting on this
> with me, i'd like to tune it according to the actual
> key (*not* simply the key-signatures used by Mahler --
> the harmony of this piece is *much* more fluid than those!)
> of each little section. that would require a detailed
> harmonic analysis, but i'll eventually be doing that
> anyway, and including it in the second edition of my score.

but if you want to keep it simple for now, i can at
least advise as to the best central tonic for each
of the 7 sections.

Mah1 Bm, so D

Mah2 Em, so G

Mah3 Em, so G

Mah4 Eb is probably best for this roving section

Mah5 Bm, so D

Mah6 Em, so G

Mah7 Em/maj -- G would work, but E has to be strong at the end

-monz

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
> hi Gene,
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
>
> but if you want to keep it simple for now, i can at
> least advise as to the best central tonic for each
> of the 7 sections.
>
>
> Mah1 Bm, so D
>
> Mah2 Em, so G
>
> Mah3 Em, so G
>
> Mah4 Eb is probably best for this roving section

but then again, the "heavenly" section in Mah4 is in B-major,
so you'd want to emphasize that a lot.

> Mah5 Bm, so D
>
> Mah6 Em, so G
>
> Mah7 Em/maj -- G would work, but E has to be strong at the end
>
>
>
> -monz

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:

> but if you want to keep it simple for now, i can at
> least advise as to the best central tonic for each
> of the 7 sections.

I've had some success with extended meantone using pitch bend, but
that wouldn't work with a Mahler symphony. If I can figure out how to
get realtime MTS messages working, I might be able to use Timidity to
render the result. Otherwise, chopping the midi files up into as many
natural break points as possible, where opportunities occur to
smoothly retune, would be the best starting point.

>but if you want to keep it simple for now, i can at
>least advise as to the best central tonic for each
>of the 7 sections.
>
>
>Mah1 Bm, so D
>
>Mah2 Em, so G
>
>Mah3 Em, so G
>
>Mah4 Eb is probably best for this roving section
>
>Mah5 Bm, so D
>
>Mah6 Em, so G
>
>Mah7 Em/maj -- G would work, but E has to be strong at the end

But in say grail, the historic norms might not be the best-
sounding for a given piece.

-Carl

hi Gene,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
>
> > but if you want to keep it simple for now, i can at
> > least advise as to the best central tonic for each
> > of the 7 sections.
>
> I've had some success with extended meantone using
> pitch bend, but that wouldn't work with a Mahler symphony.

i'd ask you to elaborate, but you don't really have
to, as i already know that Mahler's 7th is so harmonically
fluid that it would be hard to get an automatic retuning
to work well in any case.

> If I can figure out how to get realtime MTS messages
> working, I might be able to use Timidity to render the
> result. Otherwise, chopping the midi files up into as
> many natural break points as possible, where opportunities
> occur to smoothly retune, would be the best starting point.

whoa ... that's exactly the *opposite* of what i had
in mind. i was just about to embark on concatenating
the seven Mahler 7th/1 files into one. the only reason
they were chopped up in the first place is because back
in the good old days neither my computer nor my software
could handle such a big MIDI-file; now it's not a problem.

i'm tired of having to edit out the silent gaps in your
OGG files which are the result of the seven different MIDIs.

i really like the way the older bifrost version sounded.
could you retune all seven of the newer MIDIs into bifrost,
but using the key-centers i suggested for each one?

-monz

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:

> i'm tired of having to edit out the silent gaps in your
> OGG files which are the result of the seven different MIDIs.

I left the pauses; I thought you may have wanted them, though I did
exterminate long blank passages at the end where the midi timing was
longer than the music.

>
> i really like the way the older bifrost version sounded.
> could you retune all seven of the newer MIDIs into bifrost,
> but using the key-centers i suggested for each one?

If you like the older version, why not just use it? Changing the key
centers is likely to make the result worse.

hi Gene,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
>
> > i really like the way the older bifrost version sounded.
> > could you retune all seven of the newer MIDIs into bifrost,
> > but using the key-centers i suggested for each one?
>
> If you like the older version, why not just use it? Changing the key
> centers is likely to make the result worse.

i like the *tuning* of the older version ...
but i've made more changes in the tempos, which
means that the new files need to be retuned to
the old bifrost tuning.

... but don't do it yet ... i want to make a
few more adjustments to the MIDIs. should i
then go ahead an concatenate them into one big file?

-monz

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:

> but if you want to keep it simple for now, i can at
> least advise as to the best central tonic for each
> of the 7 sections.
>
>
> Mah1 Bm, so D
>
> Mah2 Em, so G
>
> Mah3 Em, so G
>
> Mah4 Eb is probably best for this roving section
>
> Mah5 Bm, so D
>
> Mah6 Em, so G
>
> Mah7 Em/maj -- G would work, but E has to be strong at the end
>
>
>
> -monz

Monz, what do you mean by 'central tonic'? If a single key is to take
the meantone fifths of Gene's bifrost tuning, then you'd want to
center bifrost on the central note of that key, not the major or
minor tonic. For example, if a piece is in C major or A minor and you
want the triads in the home key to be as in-tune as possible, you'd
use bifrost centered around the note D.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus" <paul@s...> wrote:

> Monz, what do you mean by 'central tonic'? If a single key is to
take
> the meantone fifths of Gene's bifrost tuning, then you'd want to
> center bifrost on the central note of that key, not the major or
> minor tonic. For example, if a piece is in C major or A minor and
you
> want the triads in the home key to be as in-tune as possible, you'd
> use bifrost centered around the note D.

Very often you are more concerned with putting the less-used triads
in the places with the less-usual tunings, rather than the most-used
triads in the places with the most-usual tunings. Of course this is
largely two different ways of describing the same thing, but not
altogether.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus" <paul@s...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
>
> > but if you want to keep it simple for now, i can at
> > least advise as to the best central tonic for each
> > of the 7 sections.
> >
> >
> > Mah1 Bm, so D
> >
> > Mah2 Em, so G
> >
> > Mah3 Em, so G
> >
> > Mah4 Eb is probably best for this roving section
> >
> > Mah5 Bm, so D
> >
> > Mah6 Em, so G
> >
> > Mah7 Em/maj -- G would work, but E has to be strong at the end
> >
> >
> >
> > -monz
>
> Monz, what do you mean by 'central tonic'?

the note which, more than any other in this section,
can be perceived as the main "tonic".

> If a single key is to take the meantone fifths of
> Gene's bifrost tuning, then you'd want to center bifrost
> on the central note of that key, not the major or
> minor tonic. For example, if a piece is in C major
> or A minor and you want the triads in the home key
> to be as in-tune as possible, you'd use bifrost
> centered around the note D.

OK, then by that criteria, all the "tonics" i listed
should be a "whole-tone" higher. so:

Mah1 Bm, so E

Mah2 Em, so A

Mah3 Em, so A

Mah4 F is probably best for this roving section

Mah5 Bm, so E

Mah6 Em, so A

Mah7 Em/maj -- not sure here whether A or F# would be best

... but anyway, as i've emphasized over and over again,
this is Mahler's most harmonically-adventurous piece, so
it would be best to center a 12-note tuning according to
the main tonic of each little section, with no tonic ever
dominating for more than a few measures (say, 4 to 8).

-monz